CNN vs. Eroge

LOL Censorship…

So CNN put up a story about Rapeplay one year after the the whole controversy blewover, and yet it has become a lighting rod that has encouraged a bunch of eroge loving anti-American commies to come out of the woodwork to praise the open letter penned by Mr. Nogami Takeshi. Let me make this abundantly clear: I am American and probably of the least popular sort since I am the part of the Imperial Military of Emperor Obama that seeks to make health care public and keep eroge from the general populace because clearly CNN is Emperor Obama’s state news network. Thus the views of CNN are those of all Americans… Yeah that sounds about fucking right. But in all seriousness to fight CNN’s abuse of gross generalizations with gross generalizations of their own is infantile and utterly contemptible, but at least it makes oppressing Japan so much easier as I put the boot to the throat of the Japanese as a member of the hated occupational army that’s been there since 1945. My own sick joy of making the Japanese butt-hurt aside, the open letter by Mr. Nogami Takeshi, while well written for the most part and characteristically polite yet scathing and disingenuous at the same time,  does little more than rally those who already like eroge than actually change public opinion.

To start off, CNN for better or worse is a major media outlet; I find them contemptible as most people in the military do since for the most part we have long ago realized that journalists are not interested in the truth but very interested in a story that will help them make it big. I doubt that this little incident will generate the kind of dislike of journalism that I feel within the eroge community. To be honest it’s about time they realized, but I am afraid that the lessons will soon be forgotten. Like it or not CNN is quite large and they are trusted; it wasn’t always so and they made their big break back int he First Gulf War when they stayed to broadcast inside of Iraq while every other outlet left earning them the pre-eminence they enjoy today. One open letter is not going to humble them, the truth is that eroge enthusiasts are in the minority and those who play “rape simulators” are only a subset of that minority and thus regardless of how right they perceive their own cause is, the general public that watches CNN is going to have a hard time buying Nogami Takeshi’s letter if they even read it. Prattle on about truth and bring in how the US crime rate is worse than Japan’s, but let me make clear of how utterly disingenuous Mr. Nogami Takeshi’s assertions are when he mentions,

“Men and women are equals in politics and in the law. Your society and ours are no different there. Moreover, the crime rate statistics for both general crime and sex crime in Japan are, with all due respect, several times lower than in the United States. Did you, for instance, fear for your safety while walking the streets of Akihabara, or Ikebukuro (holy ground of hentai books for women)? They’re probably many times safer than the streets of New York, let alone those of the suburban housing districts around. (And guns are illegal, too.) Furthermore, in our Akihabara and Ikebukuro, there is no persecution of men or women alike, or of sexual minorities like homosexuals. We all live together in peace, expressing ourselves freely.”

To be fair under-reporting might have a little something to do with it, but I think the general cause is a larger US population spread over a larger territory with less police presence per square mile of territory. More over playing CNN’s games of my-country-is-better-than-yours is pretty damn stupid since harping on nationalism is not going to get people to listen and make them to be more inclined to react in a hostile manner. Woe be to those who buy into the idea that Japan is a place without problems. For those who do think Japan has all the answers, I suggest to those people to GTFO and move there to live in Japanese bliss. The sad truth is we live in a broken world and we are only broken in different ways, the reality is much more complex than simple generalizations or fantasies. Still one can always move to Japan to see if gum drops fall from the sky and if loli kisses taste like honey…

No matter who you are if you look at children “that” way people will probably call you out…

Yes,  the eroge community is unfairly stereotyped as rapists in training that fap over pictures of little girls with no artistic merit. It is going to be a hard sell to convince much of the population that their loli-pics have artistic merit when in the US there are things like Megan’s Law; 4chan itself seems more or less devoted to taking down CP so that ought to tell them how CP is a line that few like to cross in the US at least, and possibly the entire Anglo-sphere. Just because it’s drawn out doesn’t lessen the discomfort people will feel when looking at their loli-doujins or seeing your little rape fantasy games. But it is a sales pitch they will have to make if they want to stop being a viable media target, and good luck with that, the Pentagon has tried for years and we haven’t gotten it right.

Comparing murder with rape is pretty much a losing battle since there are circumstances where murder can be excused such as in cases of self defense, the chaos of war, variations of manslaughter, etc. But there is no such provision for rape. I have never heard of rape in self defense and there is no real provision to excuse it even in war. Societies have used capital punishment at one time or another but there seems to be a rarity of state sanctioned rape as a means to punish criminality, so it is likely that murder and rape are two different animals in the minds of many. Suffice to say there is more acceptance for violence than rape, that’s just the way it is for better or for worse. In the West there seems to be very little tolerance for rapists and even within the penal system in the US rapists are looked down on within the jail pecking order. The perception of Japan however is much more skewed since they come across as exotic and different. Moreover the legacy of WWII means that the history of having conducted systematic rape in China, and herding women into brothels doesn’t help things no matter how much certain circles in Japan deny that it happened. So the perception is that rape in Japan is more acceptable than it is for the rest of us, not a fair assertion, but one that does exist. Looking at the sales of Modern Warfare 2 vs Rapelay or any Key game ought to spell out in no uncertain terms that violence is much more acceptable to the public.

As respected as Mr. Nogami Takeshi is, it is like having the Black Prince of Blackwater (now Xe) write an open letter to CNN to tell them the merits of PMCs, and how CNN has it wrong. It’s a hard sell and even if worded flawlessly, nothing will shake the perception that Mr. Nogami Takeshi has a vested interest in continuing the production of eroge games (sure on-record he’s done with that but he did make it at one point). Sure, within their bubble it will be a rallying point but only for them alone. What would probably serve the eroge cause better than an open letter and promiscuous linking to the CNN article, is probably a lobby group. The problem is one of perception not of rightness or wrongness, because perception is pretty much everything. Eroge games are going through what FPS and violent video games have been going through for some time already, the lesson here is that for mainstream games they have pretty much won widespread acceptance since the population that grew up with them kept playing them and formed lobbying groups that fought a battle for acceptance with self regulation. Videogames will one day be accepted as the population that did not grow with them dies out, the average gamer is likely an adult in this age so there is less backlash as time goes on. Eroge needs to play a similar game, sadly I have my doubts that outside of Japan such games will find that much traction. Also retail for the most part will not let anything AO on store shelves.

Hence his statements:

“Those products are developed for rational adults. You surely don’t believe that a rational adult would be influenced by such a game into committing rape, do you? Of course, in Japan, both that game you reported about and the hentai manga I draw are only distributed and sold under strict age restrictions to adults.

That your children might obtain such materials on the Internet is a trouble for us as well. Those are pirated copies. We would be grateful if you could let families and schools issue proper warnings to children. And would it be too much to ask that appropriate age restrictions are put in place in stores in your country so that the rational adults can buy legitimate copies?”

Also when bringing God into an argument the results… can be mixed.

In the US at least there is already censorship at play since retailers rarely put Adult Only Games on their shelves so there is regulation in that it is informally banned. Companies are allowed to sell them but most choose not to, and to be frank it is their choice on how their business is run and it’s unlikely that accusations of fascism over refusing to stock such games is really going to win many people over. Moreover the appeal for rational adults is quite laughable since people are rarely rational and it is a hard sell to convince John and Jane Q. Public that rational adults would spend free time playing a game about raping women or perusing over pictures of lolis in various states of undress. Rather I suspect that one would be lucky to get merely strange looks, but more likely come off as a sick buffoon that might get into an altercation of sorts.

I suspect that eroge enthusiasts will just have to learn how to weather these moral panics and at some point concede that their interests are niche, that rambling passionately about how vile censorship is will get them no where, that America is not out to deny them their lolis (Australia is), and that before them lies the choice of keeping things as private as possible or try and win public opinion that drawings of lolis is okay, and that a rape fantasy video game should be tolerated. The latter I think is all but impossible, and I doubt that it is simply a matter of ignorance as it is also a matter of revulsion as well. There are differences when it comes to sexuality, one is not inherently superior to the other so it is a losing battle to demand that Japan conform or that the rest should conform to Japan.

For the record I am pro-Censorship because I don’t want military matters to be publicly known as they happen; there is a place for censorship and trying to make it go away for the sake of fap material, I think, is stupid idea. Yes there is probably a place for fap materials… somewhere, but to do away with censorship is a patently dumb idea wished for by crackpots and those souls who have yet to be kicked in the teeth by reality. Information is power I think that the military at least should be allowed to black out information for the sake of ensuring security on ongoing operations, I am fine if the crap comes out 5-10 years later and people get butt hurt about it, but there is no need to remove censorship for the sake of fap materials. There are somethings that the public should not see like US Army intel regarding IEDs, it’s a shame that loli-pr0n gets lumped in with things that you should not be allowed to see, but I consider military matters to trump anyone’s need for Loli, shouta, and rape, thus censorship should not be cast aside. To insist on zero censorship is unrealistic as there is a place for state secrets, but there is also a happy median that societies can agree on with regards to moral censorship. Sadly in the case of the latter there is not much consensus building going on with eroge fans seemingly intent on prattling about their rights and not convincing those around them that what they fap to is okay. Hiding behind free speech will only get them so far. What they need is acceptance or at the very least toleration because without either they will remain a vulnerable target for a media circus. But I do share the hatred of journalists though on a much more intense level than most.

Big Media is much bigger than Big Eroge and as such I doubt widely dispersed eroge fans have the means to manhandle the news outlets the way Thatcher did during the Falklands War. They are a minority and if they try to force their agenda down the throats of a majority things will not go well. Still, best of luck to eroge fans for getting CNN to go back and apologize. Hell the if the AP won’t give up it’s Pulitzer for No Gun Ri after their sources were revealed as frauds, good luck with making CNN accountable. If all else fails pray that Japan will stand firm, as they have on whaling, and hope that they let you have all those eroge games without any censorship and move there to play them for the rest of your days, and you will probably have to move since your parent society probably does not share your Japanese-esque views on such matters. Otherwise things don’t looks so rosy even outside of Tokyo… There is a hostile environment for eroge enthusiasts outside of Japan and they will continue to face adversity until the day they gain acceptance for their particular fetish, or at least get the general population to politely ignore them as deviant but harmless perverts. In the end tough sell, tough shit, embrace the suck.

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  1. DonQuigleone
    Posted April 4, 2010 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Too true.

    But I think the problem is that most people have trouble accepting the weird fetishes other people can have. Fetishes by their nature are a very love/hate thing. One group might fetishise something absurd like dressing up as babies, while the rest of us look on with revulsion. By all accounts such fetishes are quite common, and the most common ones revolve around Power, particularly S&M, which “rape games” usually verge into. Combining that with the fact that most men do find younger women attractive, and we get what today form the majority of Eroge. Most people have a rather knee jerk reaction however, and they’re unwilling to acknowledge how popular these fetishes actually are, because they don’t understand.

    I don’t think Fapping should be made into politics. As long as it does no harm let them do as they like. I don’t think any who enjoy such H games (including myself, occasionally) can really explain why. I suppose it’s primal. Live and let live, and keep it private. After all Fapping is enjoyed alone ;)

    • Crusader
      Posted April 4, 2010 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

      It’s no secret guys like their women young, it just gets murky when you cross that age line even more so if it’s loli. I don’t quite understand many fetishes and my adventures in a broken world has taught me to kindly ignore it for the most part.

      The problem is that in some cases what people are fapping to causes a political movement the Handley case was just one of the latest examples. There are consequences for being indiscreet and there seem to plenty who think otherwise that can get things done. It would be nice if we left everyone to their own devices but that is not the case in most places.

      • DonQuigleone
        Posted April 4, 2010 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

        I’ve never particularly liked Loli (I like my women with breasts, what can I say?), however it’s notable that the current age of consent in most western countries is above what most men would judge a woman starting to be “attractive”. Case in point, my great grandmother married at 16 to a 20 year old or something, which today would be considered statutory, or pretty close. This was more was what I was getting at. The law and human nature are somewhat at odds here. I wouldn’t advocate changing it significantly, but I would say that it should be okay for “fictional” women to be between sexual maturation and the age of consent. And this isn’t just regarding Anime, real porn has a fairly large schoolgirl fetish thing going too.

        However while I think the best policy for everyone is to simply leave this aspect of each others lives alone (with all the consenting adults feats), there is an issue when it comes to societal censure. While it’s sounds pretty ridiculous to “crusade for freedom to fap”, it seems that’s only thing. That said I’m not attached enough to my “material” to really care one way or another, but I think it’s better if the countries of the world had no illusions about the manner and let people be, as it harms noone.

        Anime/manga porn face additional issues as both of them are outside the pale. People don’t understand being able to “find a drawing physically attractive”, but I find this argument preposterous. A well drawn drawing can give all the likeness of a female. The same goes for classical paintings. Many of the subjects are quite physically attractive, and intended to be.

        The really bizarre thing about all this is that people keep hearkening back to a better “more sexually conservative” time, when in fact people in the past were a lot more promiscuous then most realise.

        • Crusader
          Posted April 5, 2010 at 12:17 am | Permalink

          The sexually conservative time was when we did not bring it into public and that it simply was not discussed, now since we are taught to celebrate who you are we are finding out how different others can be and friction inevitably occurs. The thing is that I have found as a common thread when it comes to deviancy is that everyone has a line they will not cross CP is fairly common, and not everyone thinks it is okay. Personally I’ve encountered enough weirdness that is humanity to stop caring about particulars.

          Even if there is a barrier to understanding the effort either has to be made or in the case of fans of 2d loli pictures they simply have to keep it to themselves and accept that their existence is known and unfortunately loathed or make the hard sell that it ought to be considered okay. It’s not an easy thing to do I don’t see much inclination there to do it either.

          • DonQuigleone
            Posted April 5, 2010 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

            I think you’re attitude is more laudible then you might think. Minding your own business is a virtue. Let people live their lives how they wish. So long as it harms noone else…

  2. Rhine
    Posted April 4, 2010 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    This bent of ‘there ought’a be a law!’ and ‘How dare such a thing exist? Clearly the solution is THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!’ is a disturbing trend in society, really. The federal government’s been running Amtrak at a loss for decades, and in fact couldn’t even run a brothel in Nevada for longer than a year or two without going under. Hefty bureaucracies, fines and jail time isn’t the way to deal with a social trend one may or may not find as disturbing, it just makes it worse.

    It is simply legislating morality. So long as no-one else’s rights are infringed upon, what business is it of the government what someone does? It should remain the exclusive domain of that man and his primary hand.

    And to further illustrate the silliness of CNN wailing about this, here we are with record deficits in a recession, and we can still afford to have 30,000 troops sitting in Japan watching for, I presume, Godzilla. Bin Laden’s next big plan, no doubt. Then the TSA can take over the cruise ships.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 4, 2010 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

      The thing here is that there is no outcry for a Federal solution the Handley case seems to have fallen to the way side since there was a political change. That is to say that the circumstances that caused that moral outrage are gone but the political winds can and do shift. Right now it is Japan that is contemplating legislation on the matter, CNN added fuel to the fire, the American Government has reall nothing to do with this despite the idiot conspiracy theories regarding how Obama is the root of all evil.

      What you say is true but when you bring in the children things get messy, it is what is.

      We have troops sitting in Japan which is in no small part paid for by Japan, we aren’t there for nothing it’s more of a strategic reserve to react to any hostile action by the PRC or North Korea, it’s also the price Japan pays for getting some benefit from Uncle Sam’s Nuclear Umbrella since the sad truth is none of the PRC’s neighbors buy into the peaceful rise idea. Not that Japan doesn’t get anything out of it back in 1991 we liberated Kuwait partly to help secure their energy supply along with South Korea’s. Also that deficit is financed by China, my taxes weren’t high for 09 I even got a rebate, yes it’s a record deficit but the US did mortgage itself to Japan in the 1980s. It’s happened before and it’s not the end of the world per se.

      • DonQuigleone
        Posted April 4, 2010 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

        Personally I think it’s not really the feds to blame here. That huge bureaucracy probably doesn’t give a damn. It’s the moral guardians (both on the left and the right) that are the real problem. They’ll raise stupid media firestorms over anything. Recall October last year when they spent hours on Tiger Wood’s affairs when far more important things were happening in the world. US 24 hour news is worse then most, but the BBC (usually my personal favourite news outlet) does it too.

        • Crusader
          Posted April 5, 2010 at 12:19 am | Permalink

          The bureaucracy is an unfeeling juggernaut that does what ever the people in charge want, it works slowly but like a Heavy Tank it can and does crush people and things. Journalism was never a wonderful thing, there is a reason why there are terms like media circus.

          • DonQuigleone
            Posted April 5, 2010 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

            Bureaucracy has it’s part. It’s not malevolent or benevolent. It just is.

            I’m sure your experiences in the army show that it can be absurd though.

  3. Posted April 4, 2010 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Censorship is okay, but saying that censoring how to make a nuclear weapon is okay means censoring loli-porn is okay too is a different. A line needs to be drawn somewhere. The US Supreme Court, over time, has worked out such guidelines, the so-called “clear and present danger test” ( and “imminent lawless action test” (

    Eroge and Hentai fans are not stupid. They do not insist on zero censorship. Instead, consumption of such materials neither produce any victims, lead to clear and present danger, nor incite imminent lawless actions. They feel they should be left alone. Freedom of speech is at stake, and there’s no stronger defense than that.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 5, 2010 at 12:25 am | Permalink

      Indeed a line needs to be drawn but that line has yet to be firmly defines the Handley case maybe settled for now but who knows what the political winds might stir up.

      My sense of the discourse was that it was general opposition to censorship as a whole and no distinctions were being made at all. It maybe that freedom of speech is at stake but for most of the voting population it seems less like a defense of free speech and more about keeping deviant pornographic material. It’s not fair, but that is the perception and one that has to be addressed, insisting that free speech is at stake will not convince every one. That I think is the vital tipping point. It’s not about right or wrong it is about getting people to accept your argument and convince enough of them so that it no longer gets to be political football. If you don’t do that the ACLU might be able to get a ruling but no judicial ruling is set in stone it only delays the problem and provides a more visible target, it’s like that with Roe v. Wade. It might not last forever, certainly Separate but Equal did not times change as do Chief Justices.

  4. Silver
    Posted April 5, 2010 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    That’s just how the world around is. It’s crazy and sad. A lot of arguments bring Grand Theft Auto into it but I would say that Manhunt would be a better example of a violent game. Either games are horrible but funnily, one is getting much more publicity than the other. Hopefully, there won’t be too much xenphobic or racist comments flying around like it did back on Jezebel a year or two ago.

    The media nowadays focus on things that gets them ratings which is rather sad. Like you said, they focused too much on Tiger Woods while there are much more important news around. The same thing about CNN. If they really need some news, instead of digging up a game from 4 years ago, they could have gone for the news about the 7 year girl who was sold to some men by her old sister and raped. That’s more relevant and current.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 5, 2010 at 12:29 am | Permalink

      The thing about GTA is that you can opt not to commit violence against police or beat up hookers. Manhunt just isn’t nearly as popular and probably not without good reasons.

      Plenty goes on in the world to fill 24 hours, but ratings are what they are after not the truth. Personally I am not sure if the Iraq and Afghanistan falling off the headlines for most people is a good or bad thing, on the one hand less people bitching, but it also means fewer people realize what is at stake.

      • DonQuigleone
        Posted April 5, 2010 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

        Most people have a blinkered view of the world anyway. I don’t think anyone knows the full reasons for why we invaded both places. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are likely strategic interests in the region as well, which many Americans might not consider a viable reason to go there, but are more important then they realise.

        • Crusader
          Posted April 6, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

          If Somalia is any indication leaving behind a failed state is not a good idea. I think the primary concern is to make sure neither degenerates into a failed state, People can be taken to court later but I think right now it’s pretty much a race at this point.

  5. Kherubim
    Posted April 5, 2010 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    I’m more for restricted enforceable access rather than outright bans, but then I live in a country which is regarded by many people in your country (including some notables in the US State Department) as only slightly better than North Korea or Myanmar in terms of freedoms…

    Besides there is already enough problems with restricting access to tobacco and alcohol to minors, and last I heard MA-rated games are still easily acquired by whiny 12 year olds.

    Oh yes, the perennial love-hate relationship the military has with the media, you can’t feed them too much spin either otherwise they’ll stop looking to your designated press liaison officer for bylines and get their big story from somewhere else… Btw, the Beeb gave away the impending attack on Goose Green to the Argentines back in 1982, which apparently made it a tougher fight than originally intended…

    • DonQuigleone
      Posted April 5, 2010 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

      Everyone makes mistakes, the BBC included. I just think they’re better then most. From what I see of Al Jazeera it doesn’t deserve it’s bad reputation. It’s English broadcasts I’ve seen are fairly balanced, though a bit bleak.

      • Kherubim
        Posted April 5, 2010 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

        Someone once said that the best indicator of how fair and balanced (no pun intended) your media coverage really is, is the number of people who are offended… AJ has managed to piss off governments in BOTH the Mid-East and the West…

      • Crusader
        Posted April 6, 2010 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

        Al Jazeera just comes off as letting anything go, and they broadcast things that probably wouldn’t make the news because of how graphic it can be. Still I lump all journalists as one and the same, Al Jazeera is like the anything goes school of journalism, still can’t comment on how their Arab broadcasts are since I have no idea what they talk about.

  6. jwhite1083
    Posted April 5, 2010 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    The reason they won’t sell AO products is because Big Media straps cameras on kids and has the kids try to buy the AO products. Who knows how many times they try before some cashier clerk neglects the store’s policy? The minute that happens, Whammo! Instant scandal! AO products are limited to stores with other like products. It’s harder to get a big time news story when when the headline has the word, “PORN-porium” in it.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      It might be that, but most Game Stop employees just won’t want to lose their jobs over having an angry parent raising hell because of parental neglect.

      Also plenty of games are sold at Walmart and Best Buy, given the atmosphere they try to be family friendly especially the former.

  7. ReddyRedWolf
    Posted April 5, 2010 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Sigh~ Don’t judge other people’s culture with narrow preconceptions I always say. Which reminds me when Michael Moore made a fool of himself when he visited a maid cafe in Akihabara.

    Plus I’m calling double standard. Real porn is fine as the freedom of speech is guaranteed. Drawings of fiction or games depicting sex isn’t. There is something wrong with that. Violence and gore is also fine.

    Heck if people are so squicky why not ban Greek mythology? It has incest, it has rape, it has homosexuality. Oh yeah cause they are classics and only geeks try to learn about other cultures especially old ones.

    • DonQuigleone
      Posted April 5, 2010 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

      True. Hell the Bible has violence, incest and rape too, and that’s the finest book for all children to read to get a grounding in morality.

    • Magnus
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 2:17 am | Permalink

      Wait, what happened with Michael Moore in Akihabara? Details, please! :p

    • Crusader
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

      To be fair at least in America from what I have heard from fellow 40k players who are part of the pr0n industry is that there are strict guidelines when it comes to verifying age requirements. the story I heard was that the officers of the law really go out of their way to check and there are severe penalties involved should an actor or actress be underage. the right to make pr0n is protected, but very tightly regulated, at least the legal stuff anyways. I think the tipping point for many is CP and the numbers of loli stuff that is perceived to be out there. Also rape is a rather touchy subject, not all rape in fiction is designed to be provocative I doubt Rapeplay and others of it’s ilk were designed to make us gasp in horror.

      Michael Moore is Michael Moore, the man is passionate but I don’t think much of the man personally.

  8. yaku
    Posted April 5, 2010 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    The way the society’s work, an adult is supposedly a rational being who can understand the line between fantasy and reality and accept that experiencing lust or liking fetishes should be regulated by our morals and conscious, the same way we control our rage or sadness towards other people. Ideally that would mean a mature, adult person has a mentality strong enough to realize what is going on in a game (in this case, rapelay) or a book is fantasy and no joke in the real life. Unfortunately we’re a mixed bunch, and there’s always that one person who cannot draw the line.

    It’s sad that people believe others are so gullible as to do and say what a game/book tells them to, but even more sad that they actually exist.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

      Indeed adults are supposed to be rational, but if one looks around there is abundant proof that not enough adults are rational. I think that is what needs to be kept in mind.

  9. Magnus
    Posted April 6, 2010 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    As a German, I think censorship to a certain degree is not bad, although more in the vein of limiting hate-speech. Which is something a lot of Americans will obviously disagree with, because you take your first amendment issues to the ultimate conclusion. Which is why you have BS like Fox News over there, which wouldn’t fly for a second here.

    As for censorship in the military, on one side it is of course necessary to protect military secrets. On the other hand, though, it evidently leads to things like “embedded” reporters being made compliant for access and therefore the excesses of war not getting reported. Like the story of that cover-up in Iraq which is breaking just now, which shows soldiers bloodthirstily slaughtering innocents from their gunship and lying to their command about how those guys were all carrying AK-47 ( which from the footage alone it is evidently clear they are not ).

    As for your point about journalists being out for the next story to make it big, I can certainly see your point. Inaccurate coverage of complex information happens all the time, quite visible for people who have knowledge of the subject matter being reported about. When that happens as constantly as it does, it serves to make one doubt the veracity of *all* reporting, because if the journalists can’t be bothered to research issues like, say, the effect of games on peoples behaviour, how can anyone be sure they research anything else at all before blabbing out inaccurate stories?

    • Mel
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 4:43 am | Permalink


    • Crusader
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

      As far as I could tell it was only one pilot being crass, they did follow ROE and didn’t exactly go in to light the place up. It was poor judgment on their part but even from the footage I couldn’t tell what was what unless I read the wikileak caption. In that regard I doubt the pilots could have told the difference between and AK and a camera all they saw were things that were slung, Also for not knowing much about the victims they make some pretty damn grand assumptions that the Iraqi Police were going to let the kids die from neglect or something. Still I can see why the pilots thought they were hostiles and how a guy lurking around a corner with a big thing might look like an RPG. Only real solution at this point is to reconsider how much latitude pilots get for attacking ground targets, there are tricks to out wit helicopter pilots.

      Footage might be good but it is tainted by the assertions of wikileaks. Moreover in the media bites they cherry pick footage, none of the requests to fire are aired. If nothing else it is a lesson as to why reporters are embedded, it reduces the danger for one. Also wandering around in a warzone is already dangerous, a tragedy and an avoidable one from so many angles.

      Also the the desire to break a story means that there is less time to verify.

      • Magnus
        Posted April 7, 2010 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

        Well, the full-length video also was available on the Wikileaks site, so it isn’t as if they tried to hide it. Not to mention that, according to various news sites and pundits, which at the beginning also speculated that the shortened video was leaving out important information, the full-length video indeed did not cut out anything of importance.

        And while I can at least rationalize the shooting of the first group of people ( although not condone in any shape or form ), the shooting of the people with the van, who just tried to help the heavily wounded survivors, is not excusable, and does fall under what should be considered war crimes.

        • Crusader
          Posted April 7, 2010 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

          Indeed but int he 17 minute video they insinuated the children died because they were handed over to Iraqi police, the kids survived and got treated at an Army facility. Keep in mind they had four sets of eyes and yet we only see from one point of view one of the pilots saw something that made him think that it was an insurgent clean up crew. Up until the very end they honestly believed that they were shooting up insurgents. I’d rather wait to see what the other Apache saw before crying foul. Also the van did not have a Red Crescent painted on it.

          Given that the pilots did follow ROE and confirm as best they could and ask for the guys on the ground for permission to engage I don’t think they were out to kill everything that moved. I think it was a tragic accident more than anything else, it’s war, it’s not police ROE as much as people wish it were so. I don’t think it was a war crime, but then again I have more access to Army Intel than most so, maybe in five years or so I could tell out my reasoning, but for now let’s agree to disagree. At the very least I think a war crime usually involves shooting at something you know you should not be shooting at, I don’t see that here.

          • Magnus
            Posted April 8, 2010 at 8:30 am | Permalink

            Uh, I wasn’t even talking about the kids dying… I was talking about the incident itself. I know quite well that the kids ( though wounded ) did survive and I haven’t seen any insinuation of their death.

            And, sorry, but the allegation of an insurgent “clean-up crew” just after the people got shot up by an Apache which was still hovering overhead seems more than a bit far-fetched. Shooting at unarmed persons who are trying to help wounded people is inhuman and monstrous. *Especially* when you are then saying out-loud that you just want an opportunity to shoot at one of the unarmed wounded *again*.

          • Mel
            Posted April 8, 2010 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

            Hehe, life is fun. Anybody interested in discussing the whole thing in a better= verbal/IRC way?
            Since I am German too, in my eyes there are aspects of cultures clashing besides the obvious different positions.I`d love to see the development from here on.

        • Mel
          Posted April 8, 2010 at 3:20 am | Permalink

          I would prefer some more videos of real combats to see the difference between a weapon and something bulky in one`s hand.
          If these really look alike, the whole “we won`t harm civilians” is a lie (I always thought it was .. but anyway) because your equipment is not made for it (it never was to begin with).
          Besides, you can store lots of things / people in a van. I am quite sure, there is a chapter “vans in a combat area” in the rule book, so an excerpt of that would be helpful too.

          The video is online, your Army has to move now. Let`s see who will bring enough additional information so that we are able to judge.
          That sounds like a good task for journalism :).

          • Magnus
            Posted April 8, 2010 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

            Oh, I actually don’t really want to debate Crusader on this, since I got tremendous respect for his writing ability ( Alto-hime ftw! ^^ ) and I know, since I am an unrepentant RL peacenik ( while enjoying fictional violence, as contradictory as it may seem ) that I probably won’t find many common ground with him on this topic.

            I say we let it rest, I got tons of stuff to do this weekend, anyway.

          • Mel
            Posted April 9, 2010 at 5:56 am | Permalink

            Never said this weekend. To pull that discussion off, due to time zones, connections, Crusaders circumstances etc you would need some days for preparation and testing.
            But I am sure, that wasn`t your point :).

            The agreement to disagree in matters of war crime without a deeper discussion is “odd” (-> very polite). Well, I have a compulsive sense of mission so don`t mind me.
            I had my share of such discussions and the results can be quite fascinating.
            results != agreement ^^

            But if you both agree to disagree.. this won`t change the world one bit, you know ^^ :).

  10. Mel
    Posted April 6, 2010 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Investigative Journalism is one of the pillars of a working democracy.
    That`s why in some European countries you have to pay a fee to a central office if you have access to television or radio. The idea behind this is to ensure the independence of the media from the state, the people and industry to make this sort of journalism possible.

    But if lives are in danger due to a catchy headline backed up with a senseless story, it can cross the line.

    The problems with hentai, rape and paedophily are originally based in the violence against the other person. On average it is focused on women / female looking boys etc and doesn`t cover the feelings of the “victims” at all.
    There are people who are only triggered by that stuff. But if you ban it completely, some of them won`t be able to release their emotions but bottle them up and then explode in real life.
    Uh no, thanks.
    But there are different ways and levels to give access to these contents ^^.

    Oh well and nobody and no country is without sin. But if we don`t talk, we will never understand.
    I actually don`t like this bible passage at all since you need two people for adultery and … yeah.

    • Crusader
      Posted April 6, 2010 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

      Perhaps it is a pillar of a working democracy, but a journalist is just as human as the rest of us, they have ambitions of their own. If you look at No Gun Ri they did jump the gun and go with an “credible” eye witness who told a good story so good it must have been “true.” Even Gaip after the debacle that was the Tet Offensive was shocked at how the media responded to what was militarily a tactical defeat for him, his VC were gone, but here he got the PR victory that arguably won him the war. Journalists have a function but even if I understand their purpose, doesn’t lessen their propensity for being rumor mongering rats that publish rumors as facts and are little better than paid spies. Worse still they are a panicky bunch.

      • Mel
        Posted April 7, 2010 at 2:49 am | Permalink

        *Meh* since when do I believe a single eye witness?
        No Gun Ri looks like a mess. I checked through some internet sources of newspapers and both wikis. There seems to be mistrust everywhere.
        Tut-offensive: Propaganda ftw .. and stupid people in front of the tv. These pictures are what you get, when you send your soldiers into war ^^.

        Journalism is like triangulation: the more (independent) points you use, the better your results are.

        • Crusader
          Posted April 7, 2010 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

          Still if the key eye witness was a fraud regardless that Pulitzer should have been surrendered, but it was not. Even if the AP was on the right track it wasn’t their best work and it wasn’t worthy of commendation. Right or wrong because of that alone the AP comes off as less than savory for holding on to an honor that they won through sensationalism and sloppy reporting.

          • Mel
            Posted April 8, 2010 at 2:12 am | Permalink

            Getting the Prize for Investigative Reporting in 2000 for a massacre (?), that took place 1950 .. . 1999/2000 must have been some boring years for investigative journalism, when you read the headlines of the other finalists.
            AP`s prize is rather a negative memento than something to show around I think.

  11. Braadpan
    Posted April 6, 2010 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    i hadn’t heard about this yet, but this kinda LoL’d me out. Stupid CNN women just complains too much. Personally i don’t play Hentai games, i have seen some hentai and porn however. No real need to lie about that XD every man does that at least once just to feed their curiosity. I wil agree to CNN that the Raping might be a bit extreme on these parts. but it’s just a subgenre i think. just as you got subgenres in regular Anime. not all people like them so let alone that all hentai lovers would play such a rape game. most ppl who would play such a game are just hentai lovers, they like to play such games to statisfy their need fun or just to play out their imagination. So why not just let them, No offense meant here but about 95% of those who play such games wouldn’t dare do it in reality.
    i myself like anime and games as well, and honestly i am not all that sociable. its not as bad as not daring to talk to a girl. but i would certainly think it over quite a bit of times before even trying.

    ah well, as long as those CNN folks calmed down it’ll probably wont have a major effect =P

  12. Crusader
    Posted April 6, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    It will pass to be sure, but not everyone is just going to leave everything as is, it’s those people that need to be convinced.

  13. RNA
    Posted April 7, 2010 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    This incident alone shows how ignorant both sides really are. Nogami Takeshi claimed both sexes in Japan are equal in both politics and in the law, but I all ready knew he was wrong, especially with a quote like this:

    “Yoko Yoshida, a staff member at the Tokyo Rape Crisis Center, said the wink-and-nudge attitude is grounded in a popular culture that often depicts rape as an act of passion, not violence, and that women who resist don’t really mean it.” – from Rape Debate In Japan article, 9/2/03

    With their current sexual assault laws light years behind the United States (not without saying U.S. laws are in need of improvement), it’ll take decades for Japan to break away from their traditional cultural thinking (just like how it’ll take decades for the U.S. to stop blaming misused objects or usually misunderstood individuals for most of their problems).

    CNN is, well, CNN. It doesn’t surprise me one bit they went for the “culture shock” factor when reporting on eroge, but at the same time, it saddens me that it appears the report was done to reaffirm how “sanitary” the U.S. is compared to Japan, which is not even true. Banning games like Rapelay will not stop rapes from occuring, nor will 100% censorship will solve all problems. There will always be people, no matter where they live, who have rather sickening sexual fantasies but keep it private. This is nothing more than a clash of ideals, with both sides that will, perhaps, never truly learn to understand each other or themselves.

    Concerning the low reports of rape in Japan, I can honestly say I can’t believe the statistics because, just like the United States, not all rapes are reported.

  14. Marigold Ran
    Posted April 10, 2010 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    News organizations balance entertainment with news. Too much news, and no one watches the network. Too little and it becomes like Fox news. A balance is necessary. The people at the top must have decided that they needed more entertainment: hence the rapelay incident.

    In other words, it’s business.

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