Mikuru’s wink! There’s too many of them. How many you ask? Well Impz if I took a piss out my window I would hit 300 of them. Yes, I need that flame thrower and an air strike!
While most of blogging community has passed judgment on KyoAni’s recent Lucky Star and announcement of Clannad I think that it does indicate something tangibly larger. KyoAni is undeniable one of the better known studios and has many accomplished series to its credit. As such the studio stands at the apex of its power and can in my opinion further the media or simply go on producing series that appeal exclusively to the current audience.
Hopefully they will not be resting on their laurels and simply tout past successes while milking the die hard fans for decades to come like Gainax. It does stand to reason that currently anime and animation at large is not taken terribly seriously. While it is appreciable that animation has its own category for awards and such, the separate category also indicates that few if any series or movies have enough traction to compete head to head within a single genre.
It really says something that in the West only Ghibli has achieved notoriety out side of the Japan. Such is their success that it has been argued that they are indeed separate from anime in general. While anime has migrated to outside of Japan in increasing quantities, that is no guarantee of quality. The fact that anime is so closely associated with Hentai outside otaku circles indicates that there is a long fight ahead to gain mainstream acceptance.
The gate has been opened once again. Perhaps KyoAni will lead the way. There studios can find a new destiny.
The larger question that arises out of KyoAni’s path is if any anime studio can further push anime into a more serious art form? Should studios take creative risks or settle for more sure ways of commercial success? Should anime become a media that has credibility outside of the otaku community or should it remain the purview of the initiated? If anime is to become a more serious media what needs to change? What needs to be kept? What issues continued to be ignored?
What will be their legacy?
Impz’s view on the matter
Them snowmen look like piles of chewed bubblegum. Heck the whole picture is so ugly I hereby declare this a modern art master piece. Also you have some nerve trying to slight Nayuki like that, Impz.
To me, I feel that Kyoto Animation has treaded a very safe path in the series that it has done. Let’s look on the themes that it has covered and you have to say that it’s pretty mainstream themes that is more based on cuteness rather than a serious art form. The thing with anime is that the strong Hollywood influence meant that the biggest market often thinks of the anime genre as a children’s art form. Even Ghibli is not exactly targeting the adults, but more on the child-like mysticism that is well animated by them.
In that way, they are not exactly mainstream for the American average audience, but more toward young teenagers and young kids. Do remember as well that Ghibli productions in the United States did not do very well, as much as people might hyperbole the effects. They do not even hit anywhere in the top rankings of the week gross earnings in the box office in the United States, much less for anything else. The figures are in the database of imdb and honestly, Shrek 2 (considered to be a wild animation hit made in the USA) box office earnings of close to 400 million dollars dwarfs it. There is almost no means of comparison for profit.
It is perhaps overly idealistic to think of anime ever gaining mainstream acceptance. The artwork style is non-mainstream in nature and no different treatment or style will ever allow it to be considered a more serious media. If it is a serious media, the part on realism has to be adopted and I do feel that the whole part about realism, not only the story but the character design and the likes, will detract the whole creativity bud of anime.
I mean, if every single anime character is not cute, has only black hair and have really flat chests instead of those deliciously huge ones that fanservice loves (since Japanese people generally only have small chest sizes), I doubt that it will really be anime, only animation to the common anime fan. I will not like it, I think. I might be severely wrong on this and I will beg for more expertise in this area of scope.
In my opinion, it is perhaps wishful thinking to think that Kyoto Animation can bring anime to mainstream. If Ghibli cannot do it, Kyoto Animation might have a problem. It is also important to note that the cultural difference inherently in Japanese animation continues to be a barrier of entry. If anime cannot even be truly mainstream in its home country, the possibility of a culture different environment accepting it as the mainstream media is a joke indeed.
Crusader’s view on the matter
Nothing to add…nope not a single tear, but damn was that close.
Kyoto Animation has thus far treaded a very safe path, however it is part of an entire industry devoted to churning out anime. With globalization I do think that anime will have to evolve to make it at the very least more appealing to a non-Japanese audience. I think that anime is at the position where the video games once were. Initially it was a more fringe media that gained enough traction to generate huge revenue streams. I think that if Japanese studios want more money the will have to make it more compelling.
Otherwise it will eventually be surpassed by other forms of entertainment. While Ghibli has not garnered the profit margins of other animated works such as Shrek, Hollywood has much greater clout globally and can distribute its works to a larger market. Thus far Spirited Away was released in five territories compared to the possible 35 that Hollywood has focused on. Even if the profit margins can be disputed it should be noted that Ghibli has won recognition in the West for their work.
Grave of the Fireflies (not really meant for the kiddies eh Impz?) for example is considered to be on par with Schindler’s List in the terms of leaving a very strong impression. As an anti-war film it is vastly superior to the drivel that Hollywood spoon feeds audiences. I have met servicemen who did do tours in East Asia in the 1980s to the present and many of them were exposed to anime and were short lived fans until raising a family and working in the real world got in the way. I’ve met many older servicemen who ask me about Naussica of the Valley Wind and My Neighbor Totoro. For them to even recall and have fond memories of such works is something of a feat in itself.
Like any devotee of Haruhi-sama even my workstation has a wallpaper dedicated to her glory, and I do get comments from comrades who have some inkling of what anime is even if it just brings up Pokemon and Naruto. The most common thing I do find however is that while there are fully fledged otaku servicemen we have to all have to address the issue of Hentai at some point if not more often. While few servicemen are devotees of Haruhi-sama; many if not all servicemen have some knowledge of that which slew betamax.
I need some smoked cheese right now. ~Nyoro
Most anime series have to have many types of moe characters and the all pervasive panty shot, and this generates much more negativity outside of Japan. Anime may not be appreciated but the things it has helped bring over have colored the perceptions of Japan in the West. The Japanese School Girl is making headway as a symbol of Japan as well as the Love Hotel in the military since every serviceman who has been to foreign countries have seen many things as most of them take every opportunity to get off the base whenever possible. Since boredom makes for good sea story time the old sea dogs tell of the land of the rising sun and how very strange and quirky the inhabitants are. Since Hentai looks so much like anime for most people the association is strong no matter what a single otaku can say.
It says a lot when many servicemen and the general population that have seen a Ghibli film with their families fail to make the association with anime at large. Bring up the more moe or the more bishie character designs and the first thing that comes to mind for them is cartoon copulation. I would be lying through my teeth if I tried to argue that anime is different because of the compelling stories rather than the shifty concept of moe. I find that in anime the compelling stories are few and far between, while the moe harem is still ascendant.
It does not have to be this way. If a story can stand on its own there is no need to show panty shots every bloody minute. If Grave of the Fireflies was a live action film the story may have suffered technically, but because it was animated the message of one of the real tragedies of war, the dehumanization of a society, shone through. It hit the viewer with full force without bad special effects to generate laughs.
Anime can be a more compelling media if studios choose to make it such. The success of Shrek was because it appealed to both children and adults with out having to having human Fiona in the shower. As a comedy it was more subtle and smart than having a doormat with a nose bleed. There is material out there that is good and can benefit from animation rather than live action. Animal Farm could be animated and be no less critical of Stalinism and without any suspicion of CIA involvement. Even if Japan is devoid of compelling source material (it ain’t) using foreign works is an option.
Being serious and thought provoking, does not mean that it cannot also be commercially viable. I don’t think that anime fans should have to remain as a fringe element as a social group. If anime were to become mainstream we might one day watch a subbed episode on the same day it is broadcast. Perhaps we can have anime related products on store shelves at retail chains rather than having to go through specialty stores and having to pay for shipping. Heck even Eroge fans might get their fap fodder crack beloved game at a Gamestop or EB.
Real clever Impz, you have just scuttled my argument and on an uneven keel no less, bravo. Why did I agree to this in the first place? I will remember this the next time I think about giving you any control over screenies and especially where they are placed…even if it is Full Metal Panic.
Say what you will about the benefits of not being mainstream, however bear in mind that being part of the mainstream is not necessarily a bad thing. In most countries the bigots, zealots, and pundits are considered to be fringe elements; being mainstream means that businesses have to really try and cater to you and bring you in as a customer against competition from other vendors rather than rest assured that they have a monopoly or oligopoly. Just imagine the savings, monetary and grief, of having Haruhi-sama, Mikuru-ran, Nagato-chi, and Tsuruya-san PVCs shipped by the container ship to a brick and mortar store nearby rather than a mishandled package.
For video gamers the windfall of being more mainstream meant that Jack Thompson he who should not be named gets smacked around by the Florida BAR and judges actually reviewing cases rather than having ignorant lazy parents dictate everything in video games. It also meant that video games improved in many ways and the real cost of video games went down. Platform cycles created systems beyond the wildest dreams of early Atari 2600 players. Heck I remember breaking my piggy bank for getting my cartridges, and now I can got to town on games that I want when I want them. I have no desire to go back to the Atari 2600, paying through the roof for a cartridge, and trading away my wireless controllers. I think such a windfall might occur if the same thing happened for anime.
For this to happen I think that anime has to get better source material than Eroge, if not divorce it self altogether. That is not to say eroge plots are weak, but not every single game needs its own anime series. Thus far fanservice has done the greatest disservice for the media as a whole, and the otakus in particular. It is also rather damning that fanservice has come to mean superfluous shots that are sexual in nature rather than being an all inclusive term for things that make fans giddy (i.e. a Gundam reference). I resent being associated with Hentai lovers every time I watch a series that I like. There is no need for it if it is not necessary. Hopefully otakus are generally able to grasp subtlety and are able to read between the lines rather than needing a visual aid all of the time.
While the mainstream’s perception of anime has to change there is little that anime studios have done to make it more deserving of accolades rather than rude shock and indeed disgust. That is why Ghibli is largely considered distinct, they have done things that not even the die-hard EVA fan can claim that Anno has done. I am sure that even if anime died Ghibli would inhabit something greater than a footnote in film history if not continue. KyoAni does not have to make a movie, but it can adopt a more serious tone and source material where their technical elegance can still shine. Even if adopting better source material is not viable then at least do something better than the fan fiction-class stuff that is the average harem script.
Sure we can enjoy anime as it is now, but having something to tout as serious and compelling can only be for our benefit.
Lupus’s view on the matter
Osaka, and Azumanga Daioh, will never be dethroned as the queen of slice-of-life comedy
Crusader’s bit alone is long enough to get TLDR’s from a lot of people, so I’m going to keep this short. I cannot find fault with Kyoto Animation’s ability as an animation studio. What I can find fault in is its ability to pick what to animate. KyoAni’s ability to come up with its own material is sorely lacking, as evident by the lack lustre ‘Lone Island Syndrome’ episode of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and this comparison between Hare Hare Yukai and Berryz工房 MVs.
As such, what will decide the future of KyoAni, which is or will become a studio that has the power to affect the whole industry, is what it decides to animate. Whether it is going down the right path by animating tons of ‘moe’ anime is a judgement that won’t be made by your or me, but by all the otakus of Japan. You can rest safe in the knowledge that these people hold the future of anime in their hands.
Whatever else the world may think of Kyoto Animation, it seems we’ve almost, but not quite,unanimously agreed that its ability to match catchy songs to fluidly animated dance sequences have reached an artform.
40 Comments
With the way KyoAni is, I think they should take more risk in trying to get anime into mainstream. I believe Eroge adaptations will never make it to mainstream, just because of its source material the conservatives will cry foul to that. The biggest obstacle for anime to become mainstream is the Harem and Ecchi genre(Those two usually go together). I can’t see anime going mainstream for another 10-20 years.
I just think KyoAni is very very tuned to what jap society wants.In fact, even as they experiment with strange adaptations, they go exactly for what a japanese audience would like. (ordering haruhi in weird manner/lucky star is strange as opposed to safe adaptations like kanon) And you can’t fault their attention to detail either.
For that reason, I don’t see Kyoani succeeding anywhere in the west. I don’t think they are even seeking to try.
I have cried the most painful tears while watching Grave of the Fireflies and promised myself to never watch that movie again! Of course, it’s the only movie ever that made me think so…
But seriously I can’t really understand the fuss about KyoAni. They are good, but before Haruhi, I haven’t even heard about them ^^;;;
Also, Lupus, I’m glad you didn’t hotlink but don’t you think you could at least change the filename or something before using somebody else’s screenshots without saying anything? O.o It’s not a big thing, but I do think you could have done this in a, hm, smarter way.
I’ll get back to this when I have the time, but for now, a few questions:
How much of what was written is what you, personally, want, as opposed to what should be done for KyoAni to continue as a company and anime as a medium?
For example, if KyoAni were to concentrate on eroge adaptations due to popular demand, how is it different from concentrating on Ghibli-esque works due to popular demand?
Also, is this sound and fury just a rant to get something off people’s chests, or is it actually intended to be mailed to KyoAni’s public relations department or something?
Sasa: Noted and fixed. I was lazy, and I was giving myself the excuse that mayhap I could help them generate more traffic. My apologies extended to all parties concerned.
So far, all I’ve seen KyoAni do are adaptations. For them to break the mold, I’d like to think that they would need to do something something that manages to transcend the means and be accessible to all people. You can do it by adapting something that is “mainstream”, but I’d say it would be better for them to attempt to do original work. If they have the talent to create nice openings and decent adaptations, they should be able to attempt to try something on their own. :3
I’m gunning for acceptance of animé, not just as a means of entertainment, but as a way of life. With things as it is, though, it might be extremely hard.
As for animé and mainstream, not gonna happen for a long while. We can thank Superman for that. For any Japan-based animated work to make it big in America and elsewhere, it has to be EPIC QUALITY. And it has to shatter their perceptions of animé as a whole. (tl;dr: planetarian movie.)
And it’s not just the media, but it’s fans. If the world sees us as more than crazed antisocial bad fanfic-writing cartoon-loving haughty people who scream at the latest animé releases, I think we’d be off to a good start in making people accept animé as viable and fun entertainment. We fans have to project a positive image to people in order to make the masses accept our way of life. And from the looks of things, we have one heck of an uphill battle to climb.
If we look at formerly deviant fan communities (Star Trek, D&D, gaming, just to name a few), they have at least gained acceptance, not just as entertainment, but as a way of life, mostly because of their earnest efforts to show the masses why they love their hobby. Of course there’s a fair amount of taunting, ribbing and tasteless jokes, but at least the public has accepted, albeit grudgingly, that their hobbies are relatively fun and wholesome. We need to show to the public that animé is not just fun, but wholesome.
I don’t care if the whole fucking nation does not know what an otaku is. If we’re going to adopt an arrogant attitude, that the masses are unenlightened and unwashed and we are the enlightened ones and that we have to ‘convert’ them, they will simply resist our efforts to show them why we love our hobby. In fact, if I’m not wrong, the mainstream media has been trying to put us in a bad light. So what if the likes of Densha Otoko can help us in a good way? The mainstream media WILL FIND A WAY TO PUT US IN A BAD LIGHT, even if it has to retread old stories to do so. And the masses eat this up, why? They don’t understand the whole story, and only know one side: what the mass media tells them. Contempt leads to fear, to anger, to hate, etc.
It starts from us, the fans. Carry on the torch that has been lit by Densha Otoko. Prove to the world that otaku can be as human s the rest. And when that happens, the world will be a little bit better.
Why do I say this? because it’s the only way to save our way of life. Right now, we are being besieged by hurtful, if sometimes true, news reports. Our games are called ‘rape simulators’. Our hobby is said to incite feelings of lust in teenagers. And heck, we’ve been linked to murders and terrorist acts. All it takes is a madman like JT or Ann Coulter to blow this way out of proportion, and we’re history. Heck, it’s already a problem in Japan, where packs of ‘otaku hunters’ roam the streets to prey on unwitting fans to steal their money (I don’t know if they have solved the problem yet).
Get this straight, this isn’t pre-WWI anymore, where people’s minds were open to strange and new things. This is the 21st century, where control of the media is not just possible, but has already been done, where people worry too much about their next meal to care about other things, where people simply don’t have the time to find out about everything they hear on the news. So what if we have the Internet, not everyone uses a computer in the way we do.
It starts with us, the fans of Japanese animation. We must show the world we are not creepy antisocial people. We must show the world we are not just human, but also fully(if somewhat questionable)-functioning members of society.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are fighting a war. A war that has no borders, no armies, and none of those shiny guns as well. A war that has, until recently, been confined to Japan. A war that the enemy has the upper hand, because they have already sown the seeds of fear and ignorance into the masses’ minds. This is a war that cannot be won by brute force and isolationism. In order to win this war, we must fight, not with force, but with diplomacy. We must win back the hearts and minds of the mases one at a time, by being nice to them. We must show the world we are not what they see us as.
Fight the good fight, brothers and sisters, for when the war is over, we need not fear anyymore the iron grip of the enemy. We can walk free, without the need to hide our hobbies no longer. Japan has shown us the way to win the war, and we must emulate its positive values. Keep a smile on your face, and be as obliging as possible. Spend time with your family and friends. Work dilligently at your studies, and keep your fanaticism in check. Do all these, and we are well on our wayto winning ths war.
(I apologize for the sudden shift in writing style and topic, but it really riles me up when I see otaku acting like arrogant louts not just on the internet, but in real life. They make zero pretense in hiding the fact they are otaku, and act as if they deserve it. It sickens me when they act in such a manner. Yes, I know not all otaku act like this,, but my experiences have told me otherwise. I do live in a country where free speech is a pipedream, after all.)
I’m not sure if Munto was an adaptation of some sort, but I remember watching it and being somewhat, well, underwhelmed, mostly by the confusing story.
Possibly KyoAni already tried doing original works, and found more money in adaptations.
@Drm: I do have a question: how are we going to win this “war” if few of us can agree on many things in the first place, much less how to fight this “war”?
KyoAni, to me, is now becoming an ultimate substitution of GAINAX. Of course, a saucy SHnY certianly can’t beat that old bitch EVA on subject of cultural influence, but working hand-in-hand with the Internet, KyoAni would simply crash GAINAX with fandom size.
The so-called Otaku Society, much like the “solid state society”, is formed in a way that each circle has its own philosophy(even philology) of Anime, and every one of them is pushing their own favorites while condemning the others. That’s how 2ch Anime Channel works anyway, free speech might be available, but “free discussion” is non-existent.
On the other hand, if Haruhi is going to strike like EVA, they want to be a part of it, acting like companions of the glorious leader, despite how arrogant that might seem to normal ppl.
So fandom is NOT just a walking ATM, they share mutual interests with the companies, they are in search of Esteem and Cognitive needs, whether it’s KyoAni or GAINAX doesn’t matter at the end of the day.
btw, just take a look at Munto, you would know KyoAni wasn’t very keen at producing mainstream in the past. Lucky star is their true ego that most of us aren’t already to face, nothing more.
@DRM:
Isn’t this being too much of a Chicken Little? There certainly exist various prejudices against our hobby and those who enjoy it among the general American population, but if you’re letting a few vocal idiots stir up a panic within the fandom, isn’t that just letting them win? Being excessively defensive is often a sign that there is some truth to the accusations and stereotypes, and we could easily end up harming ourselves more than helping. Showing the world that we aren’t just a bunch of freaks is all well and good, but we will become exactly that if we start treating this like a “war.”
Also, does it really matter whether or not the general public accepts deviant hobbies? Your average Joe thinking that we are nothing but a bunch of perverted bafoons (which I find to actually be the case very often anyway) is not going to affect our ability to enjoy and appreciate our hobby if we really want to. You mentioned that fans of Star Trek, D&D, and other hobbies have managed to at least achieve grudging acceptance within mainstream culture. They did not accomplish this by becoming hostile; they did it by continuing to participate in their hobby regardless of what others thought of them. Time and patience are what will achieve that same grudging acceptance for anime, not walking right into the traps of those who speak out against it. We don’t want to be the people who yell “KILL JACK THOMPSON” in response to him saying that video games inspire violence.
Kyoani definitely is a studio on the rise. It is a fun studio. I don’t expect Kyoani to be well-known in America or the west for that matter. We already have studios like I.G.
Actually, what I should be saying is that there is no way any average westerner will know anime that well or manga for that matter. Ask an average westerner about either subject and they’re most likely going to mention either a series like “Pokemon” or naughty stuff you see in series like “Plastic Little”. They’re not going to know who created “Area 88″, who directed “Sensei no Ojikan” or what is Kyoani’s latest anime.
Kyoto Animation is playing safe. They could have remade Maison Ikkoku, or maybe Tsukihime, or did Bokurano instead, but they stuck to the tried and true formulas that give them money. That’s not bad, but …
Anyway, as for fanservice, it does a disservice to how anime is perceived by a lot of people, but really, a solution that I’ve applied to my doubting friends, is just to show them shows like Koi Kaze or Elfen Lied. They’d shut up afterwards and then ask me what they should watch next.
It doesn’t really take an overhaul, just simple proof and explanation. I’ve converted quite a few anime haters out there.
After all that bullshit, none of the three actually did a definition of what they mean by mainstream or where to draw the line.
No foundation laid, no fancy talk. So in conclusion, shut the fuck up.
Two words…
Big Golbler, sorry, someone I know was watching the Outdoor Channel. Anyway…
Possibly KyoAni already tried doing original works, and found more money in adaptations. >DKellis>
Let’s take a look at another art form, classical music. The top musicians first take up the old masters’ works, adapt. If the musical talent is extremely good. They move on to produce their own creations. I’m not saying animation has the depths that classical music has, but the slight idea is similar.
On the sexuality factor:
Harem and ecchi genres may be the best bet, but those really boil down to delectable fanservice, and to get the message the viewer has to understand the encoding… wtf is ‘moe’, how in the world can that be explained? Does it need to be, probably not, because its a natural human instinct/feeling/vibe possibly overhyped, labeled, and classified but nonetheless, innate.
In American society this may be a serious problem, simply for one reason; Pilgrims! Right! Those Mayflower persons were quite different from much of the developed Western world in their days; they were extreme sexual conservatives. I’m probably overemphasizing it, but a solid part of the USA has that outlook; its built in!
So why does sex sell so well here (USA)? Because of the phrase “if its so bad, why [oh why] does it feel so good?” Sexual repression at the root of a culture only has lead to the explosion of the media outlet and PROFITS! The problems is that when it comes to things considered sexy, Americans are a bit skeptical. We may feel “guilty” about treading where we “know” (and were told was bad) but when it comes to something foreign, I feel it becomes awkward [or misunderstood].
For anime to move off the great multi-island nation, it needs acceptance from near majority, that means understanding. In this case, a less sexually repressed Europe looks like an easier area to grow than the states.
Now take away everything I just stated about sexuality, and replace it with pleasure. This pleasure doesn’t have to be sexual, but pleasing. That is the boiling point, it has to please, and it has to be understood to please. The slightest thing could catch (characters dancing with cute choreography FAIK), and open up a monster can of understood pleasure. Will KyoAni do it? Possible, but… I just don’t know.
^^ Sorry Impz for the length
Kyoani aren’t even as good as Studio Bones in my opinion. I shall leave my personal preference for GONZO out of the issue.
On the topic of making anime mainstream, what Kyoani is doing is totally NOT a non-otaku mainstream. The company with the most credit in drawing in the mainstream crowd, besides Ghibli, is obviously Sunrise and to a lesser extent, Pierrot.
Kyoani only affects the hardcore, already converted otaku. If I was a regular high school student with no prior knowledge of anime, would I be more likely to watch Haruhi or Naruto or Code Geass? Surely the latter two.
Until Kyoani stops making adaptations of otaku-centric source material, there is no doubt this trend will continue. But if they stop using otaku-centric source material, the hardcore fans will complain and say they are selling out. So what if Kyoani decides to do Naruto? Would you guys be happy since it surely will create a surge in the popularity of anime?
On another topic, why is Bones better than Kyoani? First Bones mostly uses original material they create. And Kyoani only has Mundo. Bones also does very long series, eg Eureka seveN, Ayakashi Ayashi was supposed to be long, and the rest are more or less 26 episodes. I shall forget about Jyuuohsei. Long series are better entertainment, you get to know the characters and feel more for the story. That’s not to say that Kyoani isn’t good, but the people who fangirl/boy over them tend to be what I term “moe mongrels” – people who just want their daily dose of moe.
Short series are far superior to longer ones, on average. I won’t speculate just why this is so, but IMHO it’s beyond any argument now. If ai.mu.nu were up right now, I’d post a link to the sorted table I had there.
Lian: I believe I speak for all three of us when I say you should take your attitude elsewhere. The introduction set down what we meant to be the mainstream (Should anime become a media that has credibility outside of the otaku community or should it remain the purview of the initiated? i.e. appeal to people who aren’t otakus), while Crusader clearly laid out what he believes is mainstream in his second paragraph. Even though we aren’t as nice as Crusader, I’m sure if you tried hard enough, even you can find where both Impz and myself allude to the mainstream in our sections.
I don’t know about the others, but I don’t appreciate someone who either won’t read what we’re writing or can’t even interpret something without us holding their hands, and then come at us for not writing in kindergarten speak.
I think the general concensus is that KyoAni has taken the conservative approach to their anime, they hedge their investments, going with what they know works. They don’t pull any Rambos in any genre and in the industry. They know what sells and they deliver. Whilst this doesn’t make them a creative or innovative studio, its a safe bet they will provide quality entertainment.
What I cannot agree is with the proclamation that Gainax has just been milking Evangelion. That’s very poorly researched, sure they’ve had projects less acclaimed than NGE, but FLCL and the latest title, GL has proven to be popular with not only diehard NGE fans, but the general anime population as a whole. Gainax will continue to shock and awe audiences, in a good or bad way. I think of them as the Rockstar of the anime industry, they know Publicity stunts work and I know they’ll come up with yet more entertaining titles.
Kyoto Animation is no doubt a power player. But thats like saying Microsoft is leading the way in the software industry. Its a Bread and Potatoes statement which is a safe bet, but I think the contributors in this blog know that there are other companies out there in the industry climbing out to join the anime-rush.
Its commong knowledge that I am a Die-Hard Rei/Eva fan, but I’ve written a lengthy assessment to the anime, and I know I’ve been fair in that. No fanboy will want to admit that his favourite company is of a lesser make than another, but there’s no argument that KyoAni is good at what they do. However, they won’t be the sole company paving the way into the state of anime future, like many other non-anime industries, its the sum of all parts which will determine the final state of our favourite hobby.
Cheers,
Darkshaunz
“Should anime become a media that has credibility outside of the otaku community or should it remain the purview of the initiated?”
That is so enlightening. It’s not about attitude here, it’s about your stupidity.
Rofl @ LianYL.
This is an anime blog, where its usually OPINIONs being stated, and not facts. Though the facts they use may “Support” their Opinions in one way, its not a factor which is meant to sway anybody (anybody includes You).
Also I don’t see how accusing Lupus of stupidity is going to make the entry any more discussion-worthy. If you do have something to share, and I am assuming you do have something to share, because of your super-fucking-elite-commando-of-anime high horse attitude.
If you disagree with a point made like I have, the least you could do to save yourself from looking like an utter fucking retard is to lay out a coherent argument. But of course, this being the internet, everybody can be an E-thug, for example me at this very moment.
I find it very amusing that the accusor of stupidity is actually more of an idiot than a monkey with a derelict brain. There there Bo-Bo, your keeper will feed you your bananas soon.
Also 3/10 for trolling skills man, sharpen up in 4chan /b/ or go cut your wrists. You’ll be doing mankind a delicious favour.
Oh noes! An E-thug calling me stupid! I’m so E-afraid now! What will I ever E-do! Let me go cry to my E-mummy?
Seriously, my tolerance for trolling is low. If you can’t see how that’s our line for main stream, then let me put it to you this way, in a manner that perhaps even your Neanderthal brain can understand.
Everyone watches movies at the cinemas every so often, or will catch them on TV, even if they’re not fans of film. If anime can achieve that standard of viewership, so that people who aren’t fans will either a) pay to watch anime or b) watch it on TV casually when it airs, then it’s achieved mainstream popularity.
Oh wait, I forgot. The Ice Age didn’t have words. Maybe if I made wall paintings with charcoal and marrow then you would understand what I mean?
I am amused.
I do apologize ahead of time if I don’t reply to every comment, but I am a bit @_@ at the massive arguments around.
@Endz: Hmm, I think that it is probably not of genres but the common conception of the artwork. To me, there are cheesy dramas that are considered mainstream “accepted by the public”, rubbish stuff that will be similar. Hell, even “Kumar and something goes white castle thingy?” is mainstream as accepted by most, even though it’s low brow. I believe it’s more of the artwork.
@Tedfox: I think it’s more culture-based in the works of KyoAni and I think that you have pointed out an excellent point
@Sasa: Please don’t kill me but I was laughing at the movie because I think the kids, for all their stubborn and dumb kids, deserve to die. They asked for it. That said, I guess it’s perhaps the huge production values in the form of graphical excellence that stood them out of the pack.
@Drm: It will be close to impossible. I think my arguments of barriers to entry (albeit brief) clearly shows that even though it is idealistic and good, the perception will not end. Even i find those Japanese otakus to be disgusting, and the image of anime watchers are structured by the media to be a group of senseless people. Unless that perception shifts, and it hardly does when it comes to deviant groups, it won’t. I do apologise for my pessimism.
@JRoxas: You hit the spot right there with the fact that the media has portrayed anime in a very negative light in terms of the fandom. Well, news is only news if it’s different, so it’s impossible for them to show something of a normal anime viewer. Like me, i guess, if i am considered to be normal by any standards ^^;;;
@Michael: Good job, dude but those people will always be in the minority. It cannot be ignored that the main knowledge about anime is orientated on kids, and the small group of us that shows that for every series that is like a “Teletubby”, there’s one that is more like “Lost” or “Desperate Housewives”, to use life analogies.
@RyanA: Sex does sell. I will say that my personal point is that sex, genre and all that doesn’t matter. It’s the mentality that anime = for kids. When that can change, which won’t since the hollywood power is intending to milk the animation genre dry with the kids, it will be mainstream. Before that, it is merely wishful thinking.
Ah,beautiful post.Thanks a lot,Crusader, Impz, Lupus.
What I understand is that even in Japan anime isn’t mainstream.Manga are mainstream and will soon become mainstream in the US and europe if the current trend continues but not anime.
Even in japan it seems that anime watchers above twenty(or even younger)are considered……well….weird.
So,anime would need to become mainstream in japan first then in the rest of the world.I personnaly thinks it’s the wrong approach.
Anime is japanese.Anime means cartoon from japan.Of course it’s also means intresting and rather “mature”(and no a few random boobs scene don’t make a mature show) stories.
And that’s the problem,why are japanese the only ones doing intresting “cartoons” that old teenagers and adults can watch?
Unless that problem is solved I doubt you will ever see “mainstream” anime.
That leads to the second problem is also related to japan.So we like anime because we find it intresting.But why?Wouldn’t be because it’s japanese and not american or russian or [insert random country].
Perhaps anime have specific japanese qualities that interest us but will never interest the mainstream audience.
Of course there’s a big hole in that argument.Mainstream Japanese don’t watch anime either(again,it’s what I understood).But I think it’s an intresting question anyway.
impz: Your pessimism is noted and I will try to rectify that.
Lupus: No one’s stopping you from deleting Lian’s comments. This is your mouthpiece, shared with others, and I’m sure impz wouldn’t begrudge you if you did it sometimes. Also, First Amendment states you are free to do so (dunno about free speech in Australia, though, running with the American Constitution here.) and yes, Lian is getting out of hand.
To all those who disagree with me: It doesn’t have to take much effort to be nice to people and not push the matter if you are caught staring at pictures of cute cartoon girls. Heck, I’ve been caught a few times already, and they don’t remember it afterwards. Mild jokes aside. It’s definitely doable.
Lian: Your humour is weak and your wit stale.
JRoxas: Time and patience is not exactly possible with animé. Perceptions have been too deep-rooted, even in Japan I might add, no thanks to Superman and Disney.
Caveat: I’m suffering from a particularly nasty cold, and may not be thinking clearly.
I’m wondering if a lot of the “anime is not mainstream” comments could be more accurately phrased as “anime is not our kind of mainstream”.
I mean, I’m pretty sure the average American will probably have at least heard of Pokemon, in much the same way he/she would have heard of, say, D&D, or Harry Potter. (In fact, it’s likely that they’re more familiar with Pokemon than the World Cup of soccer-football, but that may just be a US thing.) The exposure of anime in general is there, I think. But specific anime, and the type of exposure we want, that may be a lot more difficult.
Even just taking something like gaming, as in video games (much less tabletop gaming): I recently read an article (I think in The Escapist?) about how female gamers, as in those who really identify as “gamers” and spend significant amounts of money on their rigs, are seen to be deviants by their colleagues, who cannot understand why they want to “waste” all that money on games rather than a brand new car or something. Gaming is, I think, considered at least somewhat “mainstream”, but it still has all this negative connotations for some reason. (Actually, this may be cultural: I’ve seen negative connotations attached to the love of reading, as in reading novels, rather than “doing something productive in the sun”.)
In any case, I’m not sure any one individual can really do anything, or even any one group that is still small enough to be easily coordinated. I suppose what puzzles me most about the Original Post is that getting anime to be Mainstream The Way We Want It is not something KyoAni alone can do, much as it’s not something Ghibli alone or Sunrise alone can do. It’s something that uncoordinated social and cultural forces does over a significant period of time (shortened considerably thanks to easier mass communications).
So, basically, what is the point of all of this? What is the point of the Original Post?
Drm: I don’t believe in free speech, and as such I don’t tolerate idiotic spam and other kind of nonconstructive comments. The reason I haven’t deleted the comments is because it is not my policy to police what is said in my co-bloggers’ posts. If Crusader wishes to delete Lian’s trolling along with my own replies, he can go ahead and do that.
In other news, Australia has no Constitutional protection of freedom of speech. HUZZAH!
Whew, now I can delete that “it’s all Impzie’s fault that this post went to hell
@ZeusIrae
I don’t think that it is necessarily because anime is from Japan as I enjoy my share of Korean style stuff too. However I love Ghibli and became an enthusiast because of the compelling stories as opposed to Disney which I do like as well. I think that in the future there will be the beginnings of a global culture that assimilates aspects from various ones. We may never be united politically but we can all share similar cultural aspects.
I’m going to have to challenge the assertion that D&D has reached “mainstream” status, at least more so than anime. I’m going by the assumption, based on the implications of the post and the comments, that the definition of “mainstream” here would mean that it is probably recognizable by the Average Joe, even though he may not actually indulge in it himself. D&D fits that definition, but so does anime.
Now, if you’re going for something more, like, say, the Average Joe seeing it as respectable, then no, D&D does not fit that assertion, and neither does gaming in general. In fact, with some of the Ghibli movies getting as much press as the Child’s Play charities, I’d say that anime has a slight upper hand in this, since the Average Joe might have fond nostalgia for series like Robotech or Macron-1.
I think the whole “otaku” thing is a bit unfair to use in comparisons. “Fan” might be a better word, since “otaku” carries with it connotations of someone who is incapable of functioning (well) in society, and, as you say, “branded as perverts”. (Technically, so are fanfiction writers, whether anime or otherwise, but I digress.) In my view, Normal D&D Player is to Normal Anime Fan as Creepy D&D LARPer is to Creepy Anime Otaku. I don’t think it’s particularly fair to compare the Normal D&D Player with the Creepy Anime Otaku.
(No offence to actual LARPers, and I count several Vampire LARPers among my friends (like my current DM), but you have to admit that public perception of LARPing is somewhat less than ideal.)
My argument here is that anime in general is already somewhat mainstream, but it may not be the “mainstream” view that people here want. And pointing a finger at KyoAni as an example is like blaming Steve Jackson Games for not making everyone play tabletop games.
Also, cites/sources for Germany banning violent video games?
Wow, no shit, it’s like THAT Animeblog instantly became a BILLION times smarter. \o/
@DKellis
regarding Germany and video games
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20475
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18370
I disagree with people being familiar with Robotech vs D&D
D&D actually gets placed in mainstream media and commercials. Though often a butt of a joke D&D is seen as the pinnacle of geekiness. As such it is harmless and for the most part serious criticism of the hobby is exclusive to the crazies. In my experience it is at least mildly social and hence even if you don’t go play outside at least you have freinds to play even if they are all geeks. D&D is actually a small part of many people’s college experiences for that generation. Those that stuck with it passed it on.
LARPers on the other hand have some negative connotations though in all seriousness they are considered weird rather than perverted. I do admit however that even within the larger geek culture the LARPers are the butt of all the other geeks’ jokes. After all in my experience more than one game organizer has had to cancel an event due to being a bit too enthusiastic during a session.
I don’t think that gaming is held with disdain by the mainstream in fact I think we have come along way from the days of yore. Video gaming is now an industry worth billions with Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft as major players. Gaming in general is very social for the most part as you need to have opponents and GMs to play. Geeks are vital to society while held with some negativity they are nonetheless essential to the modern world even if the knuckle dragging moron that is part of the mainstream loathes geeks it still needs them every time it breaks it computer. It will not distinguish between geek varieties, hence it will tolerate geeks. On the other hand the world has no use for perverts.
Thanks for the links. I suppose my definition of “ban” is different, since the games cannot be sold in Germany, but they have no restrictions on importing them, last I checked.
I would say that anime is as mainstream as D&D if we consider advertisements on television, since I know I’ve seen plenty of ads for anime (mostly Naruto and Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh), but I have yet to see a single ad for D&D. However, I don’t watch much television. (And ads for upcoming video games outnumber ads for anime by a great deal anyway.)
I suppose what I’m having trouble with is the view that anime is less mainstream than tabletop gaming. Now, if we’re talking about being mainstream in general with no comparisons, then the discussion would turn to all sorts of definitions of “mainstream” and “anime” and such, but then it would be a different discussion. In my opinion, and this is biased heavily to personal experiences in both the US and Singapore (rather than a purely US-centric view), anime and tabletop gaming are about the same level of “mainstream” (or lack thereof), perhaps with one or the other having a very slight advantage, but from a general far view, they’re the same.
Fandom in general, whether tabletop gaming or anime or science fiction or whatever, has its own variety of reputations, many of them contradictory. I cannot say that I’ve never heard “all anime fans are perverts”, but from the same person I’ve also heard “all D&D players are Satanists”, so parity is once again achieved. (Being both, I was quickly and mercilessly insulted by said person until I walked away.) We have the casual dabblers (“I’ve only played in a few games” and “I watch a bit on the television”), we have the hardcore fans (“I think Vancian magic should be reworked for 4.0″ and “The raw sites haven’t updated yet so I got it from Share”), and we have the elitists (“THAC0 is the only way to go!” and “Naruto sucks for being too mainstream!”), and a zillion other types besides.
(A tangent: D&D may be more “familiar” because it is “home-grown” in the US, while anime is “foreign”. Compare the spread of both in Singapore, though. I have no statistics for the spread of D&D in Japan.)
My point mainly is that in my experience, anime is already as mainstream as several of the examples given, like D&D or comic books or such. Now, whether it can be more mainstream is another entirely different thorny debate, not least of which should deal with the calls for “we don’t want to be mainstream and dumbed down! We want to be elite!” from a significant portion of the fanbase. (If you thought the catering to moe and fanservice is bad now…) That debate, I haven’t actually been arguing, but I might if requested, given some time to marshal my thoughts.
And my point about KyoAni being a misplaced target still stands.
sadly, i do not believe anime will ever be mainstream. firstly most people either could not stand the story or simply cannot comprehend it.
many anime these days are eroge adaptations, harem, fanservice-based, or moe-based; elements which unfortunately turn off a lot of people. Most people (i refer to the general public, i.e. people who do not watch much anime, if any) do not play eroge and the eroge stories do not really impress people in general. For instance, while Kanon has impressive technical aspects and a decent plot, many will probably tune away (this has to do with my 2nd point – of people simply being unable to comprehend the story) Harem is not favoured by females and so does fanservice anime. Moe anime is often confused as a girl’s show sometimes by ‘n00bs’ (believe me, some males cannot tolerate moe, and being seen watching moe will make others cast doubt on your virility)so the average guy may not watch it. Moe appeals mostly to otakus, and the image of a big muscular guy watching moe is simply unconceivable due to the (mis)perception of being a girly show. Then again, not all females watch ‘moe’, so there goes any hope for ‘moe’ to go beyond Japan. Childishness is another factor. Sometimes, when people see cute characters (that are so prevalent in moe anime), they link them to childishness and perceive that anime is childish (as well those who watch them). Therefore, cute = childish to them. (wait till they see all the loli stuff)
Secondly, many cannot comprehend the complex plot. People probably yawn watching GITS, or simply watch something else besides the very deep Chikyuu Shoujo Arjuna. Understandable, since people do not watch tv to have to think so much. After all, TV is a source for entertainment, so putting deep storyline may deter potential viewers, who may prefer lighter and fluffier stuff.
I would say that the stark cultural difference is another factor. The way the Japanese think is sometimes portrayed indirectly in anime, through the dialogue, and some just do not like the way the dialogue is presented. Surely one would realise the dialogue in anime is different than one would encounter in American movies. (Sorry, can’t think of a good example) Which is why most people prefer animations from the US. Surely anime is getting more screen time, but how many anime get released in theatres? Less than one would be good enough given how anime still caters to a very niche crowd.
Another reason why Japanese anime is not exported out is because most of the companies involved are not too interested in doing so. The market is still too small, and whatever market they have outside Japan is riddled with bootleg. Authentic Japanese DVDs, OSTs, etc are costly to the average Joe (more so with the typical anime watcher being a starving high school / uni student with little pocket money) so they wind up downloading torrents or buying bootleg. In some countries, ALL the anime available are bootleg, which is ostensibly cheaper than the real deal, if there ever is one. (e.g. Malaysia, since many DVDs are out before the official ones are released in Japan and there is NO anime that is officially licensed in Malaysia)
It is heartening to note that anime is indeed gaining popularity (although these are mostly fans of naruto, bleach, one piece, etc people who watch all the Shonen Jump shonen action adventure shows) but this is far from mainstream.
As for KyoAni, unless they make good shows of high caliber, (GITS?) they will still remain known only to the otakus. Ask 10 random people and more than half will probably know Disney, 30% will have haerd of Pixar, and if you’re even lucky at all, less than one would have heard of KyoAni. They certainly deserve their current notoriety and fame given their above-avergae animation quality. However, most people cannot appreciate such high-quality anime and many of KyoAni’s works still appeal mainly to otakus. Wanna get the average Joe who knows nothing about anime to watch Lucky Star? (and be clueless about the various anime parodies in it?) Fat chance.
Overall, I do not want anime to be ‘dumbed down’ in terms of story or character design just to make it ‘mainstream’. we should always remember why we liked anime in the first place, and i believe ‘mainstream’ is not a reason. making it ‘mainstream’ will make it lose the qualities that we all like anime in the first place.
get…a…life!!!
Heyy,
i really like that pic or the little chibi the one eating the bicky, and the flag with the 5 on it(Osaka, and Azumanga Daioh, will never be dethroned as the queen of slice-of-life comedy) and i was wondering if (with your permission)i could have the pic as my myspace background? please?!? sorrie for any inconvenience and if there is any thing u want me to do 4 it then just tell me(like post the name of the site or something)
please write back to crazzy_like_sugar@hotmail.com
Thanx
.Xx.TiGz.xX.
Konata’s and Lucky Star’s epic greatness has dethroned Azumanga Daioh.
hey, i like osaka a lot..she’s cute.i would like to see the picture.pls let me..uwaaaa…
dont you have anything better to say then remain silent…
i like both Air, Lucky star and Full metal Panic!
and iam not gonna change my mind…
and so what like i care if you dont like the pictures…do it better yourself!
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