Why can’t we just relax and be friends sometimes
Owen S, or of Cruel Angel Theses (with a new spanking site by the way), has asked of me to do an entry regarding the state of anime elitism in the community. To note first, Owen S is a self proclaimed anime elitist, and enjoys the notion of being one. Before I start on any argument, I would first justify my position by defining what it means by “Elitism”.
Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are mostly likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.
Now the definition is done for the general meaning of elitism, let me not go to long debates before telling you my opinion of this. Any form of elitism is an act of superiority and ignorance, and should be condemned. The form of discrimination, even in a medium of anime, should never be allowed to exist. I am never that strong in my opinion on anything due to my decently peace-loving nature, but this is hitting on a rather sore point of mine, so do not expect me to be nice on this topic.
To list it out, how this anime elitism can be interpreted to me can be of many forms
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1. The ideology that an anime genre type is better than another (e.g. slice of life better than harem)
2. The ideology that certain anime fans are better than others (e.g. Serial Experiment Lain fans better than Naruto fans)
3. That certain people have a better taste of anime as opinion leaders of a community compared to others. (RandomC and Riuva)
4. Dubbed series are much worse than Subbed/Japanese series.
5. Old school (NGE, Akira) is better than the new anime on hand.
Due to space and TL;DR constraints, I will merely focus on the first point. Point four and five have been run so much by others that it is boring and ridiculous for me to deal with it anymore. Point two and three will be somewhat linked to the first point, but opinion leaders of the anime community is a situation that will soon arise with the growth of the online community. I might cover it in a small point later but my main qualm is on the first point.
I apologize for being a bit more serious than usual ahead of time.
So, what does it mean to be an anime elitist?
A classic example by anime elitists to be a “good” anime. I never understood it
In my opinion, there is one main sign of an anime elitist. They tend to consider a certain form of genre much better than another, and very importantly enforce that idea onto everyone else. Everyone have preferences in what they watch, but it is perhaps only an anime elitist that will actually say that a certain genre of anime is perhaps inferior to any other genre. It is like how those people who are in the art stream considering popular movies to be of low brow, and of inferior taste.
Who defines low and high culture? The elitists themselves. They want themselves to be the opinion leaders, even though the majority of the population probably disagrees with them but the general public are assumed to have 0 knowledge in the (“Don’t know what the hell they are talking about“) Appreciation skill. Anime elitists also have a point of berating anyone that goes against those values, and insist on a certain anime being the best. Any other anime will be shot down almost painfully without a bat of an eyelid. That is perhaps my common man personality and status against this notion that some people just have a better taste than others. It is almost saying that if an anime blog’s writer has tons of readers and comments and popularity, that means he/she has better taste than others. That, to me, is absolute rubbish.
I do not deny that opinion leaders are important to guide the unadvised crowd but elitism is perhaps a form of perverse behavior when they think that they are superior than the common man. Common forms of elitism, some with certain grounds, include the consideration of harem anime to be inferior compared to more art form/deep thinking series. Another perhaps common notion is the shounen/shoujo series being a bit too fluffy for “proper” anime watchers.
So, is that really true that anime fans who enjoy shoujo is lame and weak compared to someone who enjoys Ghost in the shell? Does anime elitism have any ground in truth?
Is there really inferiority in a genre/fan?
Anime elitists of genres
This anime lacks the 3Ps. Nuff said.
Using a common notion, it is clear that a genre is never truly a rational view in whether a series is good or bad. It is usually the three Ps that determine whether a series is good, being “Production values”, “Plot depth” and “Personality”. That has nothing to do with any genre. Despite the easy stereotype that all mecha series are inherently bad that is used by me, I actually enjoy quite a few mecha shows such as Zegapain, Macross, Bokurano and others that I cannot remember currently.
Nevertheless, the method of the 3Ps (Personality, plot, production) is just a simple term coined by me to illustrate the main points of how an art form should be. For example, the problem of harems seen as inferior is due to the fact that there is little originality in most of such stories (Plot depth), the personality being run in the mill without much character development (Personality), and the general lack of production values in terms of budget and seiyuu talent (Production values). It is hence nothing to do with the genre but the underlying factors behind it. It is a gross overstatement to allocate the fault to the genre and most elitists often are too blind to their views to notice such a simple fact. Successful series with the 3Ps in the harem genre such as Kanon, AIR, Shuffle! and Negima should make the fact more blatant.
I do not deny that humans, being often myopic and jealously-abound creatures, sometimes tend to allocate certain series as a certain genre and deny to watch it. That, to me, is fine because the fine line of avoiding a genre due to the lack of perceived enjoyment levels is not breached, but the problem with elitists is that they breach that line and outwardly (and ridiculously) consider them as the problem of the genre, rather than the 3Ps. Superficially disguised posts are often used in order to promote their own goals.
No one will call you an elitist when you say something with the 3Ps is better than one, without, since it is clearly a more objective form of discussion of anime on the whole. It is nevertheless subjective in what values are better, but it is at least on firmer ground.
Anime elitists of fans
The root of all hatred by anime elitism, perhaps
The other form of anime elitism that I will discuss, in terms of the fans, is a more questionable topic. Many of you know that I sometimes find Naruto and Bleach fans really annoying. However, it is perhaps inaccurate to assume it as an anime situation. Everyone always complain about Narutards, but that’s simply a problem of having a large audience and widespread acceptance. When you’re sampling from a larger population you’re more likely to find something you’re looking for, which is, in this case, idiots. And the idiots who watch Naruto just tend to be more vocal than others. Anime elitists just cannot help but feel their superior intellect compared to the juveniles who can barely speak proper English.
I also do not have to add that all forms of idiots are abound in the Internet, particularly with those elitists who think that they are way cooler discussing about intellectual verbose on the underlying usage of hedonistic utilitarianism of Bokurano. They are a different kind of idiot but that is not my point.
My point is merely how you define an idiot. That’s all. An arrogant person can be an idiot. A person who cannot spell can be one.
So where does all this bring us? The underlying notion is the human need to feel superior. No one wants to feel like they are weaker than others, and elites in the negative connotation often have a huge inferior complex which makes them needy to prove their worth against others. Do you think that it is the catalyst in the creation of such a person? It’s your take on it.
49 Comments
Nicely written post about anime elitism. It’s just so true.
Anyway,I wouldn’t consider myself as one,but I just hate Narutards. Other than that,I’m fine with the rest.
In University, we discussed breaking the boundaries and assumptions of “low-high culture”. And I must admit, that this whole thing of “superiority”, which as you say (and I agree with you), is part of the human condition (probably as much as exclusivity). Watching the anime culture adapt in our society sometimes has me worried that western commercialism and social ideologies will morph the anime community into something less giving and more critical.
I heard once from somebody who said that anime isn’t “what it used to be”. But to be honest, neither is film and it still brings in the bucks. So I think alot of these people need to untwist their knickers and relax and go with the flow of change.
I think balance is the key to all, in this situation. When I was following “Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto”, I began to realize that there is a “deep, cultural” thought that can be attached to a show. And as a “Narutard”, I felt really out of my depth. For the first time in my life, I was asked to stand back from the show and critique it on a much deeper level (whereas before, I’d just watch it and enjoy). Both forms of “watching” (critical and entertainment) are valid, but as you say, elitism should decide for the masses what is “better” and what “is not”.
“Ergo Proxy” for example IS A VERRRRYYYY DEEEEPPPP show. The ideas behind it and the theories – I only JUST heard in the most controversial English classes. “Critical Theory”. But looking at the fandom on FF.net, and cruising around… it’s not that “living”. Which goes to show that Western audiences do enjoy their reality tv, their Top Model shows and their shoujo just as much as they enjoy “Pride and Prejudice” and “Ergo Proxy”.
Elitists, whether for Anime or anything else, tend to be exclusive and dull. And when they do do something… nobody enjoys it, because nobody (really) reads it. And they basically go around thinking they’re all that when they’ve actually have made (very little) contact with anime fans.
I like your 3 Ps. It’s very very very true. I think that as an English Major, you’ve done a good job at honing the necessary down to the basics. And you’re right. For example, take “Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto” (BKI for short). That was a very high-brow, culturally informative show. It had the best topic at heart – the division of Japan and the struggle for power during an important part in Japanese history. But, let’s face it… some of the production was… odd… and the personalities were hard to sympathize with… And the plot was simple at parts and then suddenly weighted with historical facts… It was a frustrating show to watch.
But then, look at “Ouran High School Host Club”. Where the production was… so-so… but the plot and the personalities more than made up for it. And the fandom is thriving and amvs and fanfics are pouring out… Yep. Just goes to show the elitists that elitism is essentially self-destructing because elitism doesn’t really allow for growth.
I think I told you the list of stuff I write. It basically reflects the list of stuff I watch.
Josei – KokuMono, Nodame Cantabile
Shoujo – Cardcaptor, Tsubasa, La Corda D’Oro
Music – Nodame, La Corda
Mecha – Rahxephon (I find it hard to like mecha)
Shoujo – Naruto, Bleach, Tokyo Majin Gakuen Kenpucho
Historical – BKI, Samurai Champloo, Samurai Deeper Kyo
And the list can go on. But how could it not? I really don’t understand exclusivity when it comes to taste.
And about fans: as a “Narutard”, I’m often embarassed by some idiots that DO show up around “Naruto”. You know, the young kids or the narrow-minded Western teen/adult, who thinks they are trendy because they jumped on the anime wagon… but in reality, they are harsh and ignorant when it comes to long standing anime traditions (like yaoi, yuri etc.). And it’s not just Naruto. I’ve noticed this among “Prince of Tennis” fans, “Bleach” fans and even “Blood+”.
One girl did a meme and ended saying, “of course it’s Haji and Saya – how could it not be?”. I had to point out very kindly, that with fanfiction, fanart, fan amvs, ANYTHING is possible in an anime community. “And please don’t assume that there aren’t other possibilities with this show”. For example, I actually prefer X/Haji, be it Saya, David or anybody else. In other words, I think that there are alot of Western ideologies (which I’m not criticizing) at work here. The kind of ideologies that cut out specific “questionable” parts of the shows – which demand specific ‘shipping’ at the cost of other possible ‘ships’.
Perhaps, that is why I enjoy fansubbing and have started it. Because I want to carry on the tradition of bringing fans the “real” stuff without cuts or mistranslations or anything that might take away from the original piece of work.
As for “loud” fans, I went to a con for the first time in my life – and all my friends were PoT-shippers. So they cosplayed as males (altho female) and got together and did some CRAZY STUFF. (like play loud music, drink this weird slushy stuff… and even two girls kissed – for to satiate some shippers who wanted to see the ‘two guys kissing’) I was like… “This is faaarrr out…” But you know, even if it seriously wigged me out, I had to understand that for different people, anime means different things. And we ALL are going to bump to things that will “squick” us.
And do I think this eternal tension between elitists and others will be resolved? I think not. Every now and then, watching my fellow Narutards – or falling into a hentai sight, I wonder what the heck are people thinking. But on the other hand, if they visited my fanfiction, they might wonder the same about me as well.
Sorry… I’m so sorry for taking up your blog. But you really brought up valid and interesting points. Points that have been bugging me. For a long time I thought the anime community was ship-shape (it’s like starting a new job, or just getting married). But that was just the “honeymoon phase”. I now realize that there are people out there who are control freaks, who guard their stuff and their space and their ideas like squirrels or something.
Once somebody wrote a fanfic ON my fanfic. 6 of my most rabid reviewers, jumped down the poor writer’s throat and demanded s/he erase the story or at least tell me and give proper credit. ONLY THEN, was I told… so I ended up chatting the ficcer. They were pissing their pants – but I resolved it easily. After all, I’m a fanficcer… my works are no more sanctioned than the person that I’m fanficcing. Credit is important. But essentially, people like us are crossing creative licenses… so… who are we to complain if people fanfic OUR works? We should be PROUD! All in all, this idea of “ownership”, “authority” and “elitism” seems… very exclusive to me.
Once again, I apologize for the rambling. I hope you don’t mind! Tell me if you do mind… >.>;;;
Ja!
Umm… a coupla mistakes there…
EDITED: Both forms of “watching
I have my own taste and guidelines when it comes to anime. However, I try not to impose my view on others and will try my best to look at validity of reasoning by others. That said, what irks me is that some fans consider certain animes to be very original and upholding highest aesthetic standards when I see it as reusing of old cliches and mis-begotten cultural ‘rumors’ and fancy sounding pseudo-philosophical terminology. There are cases when fans attach non-existent value to an anime series, and pointing that out should not be taken as elitism or snobbery.
>>Anime elitists also have a point of berating anyone that goes against those values, and insist on a certain anime being the best.
Those are retards, not real elitists, more like wannabes. I think you should’ve differentiated between active vocal and passive, normal elitists, because you made it seem like all elitists actively go out and berate people for watching shows they don’t like.
It’s like discriminating against a demographic or group according to what the extreme minority do — for example, males in their 20s-30s from the Middle East post-9/11 were definitely discriminated against, as was anyone of indeterminate Arabic/Muslim origin. I’d laugh if someone told me what to watch and said he or she was an elitist; to me, part of what elitism is is being able to explain what it is about an anime that I like very clearly, not just telling other people that their taste sucks or something like that.
Insisting that one anime is the best is quite dumb, I don’t do that myself. The real elitist would have several top picks but no single “best” anime, IMO.
I can handle Narutards and Bleachtards. They are innocent, yet mildly annoying.
Haruhitards, however, well, they deserve to be CLEANSED, PURGED, KILLED. In the name of the Everliving Emperor! (Erk, a lil’ WH40K kick there.)
It’s this elitism that’s killing our hobby. I would rather surrender to the taint of the Warp than associating with these heretics.
Is elitism/elitist really even applicable to anime fandom? In whatever hobby or interest you are going to pick up there are inevitably going to be people with strong opinions. The real question that revolves around determining what determines an elitist is if he or she has the power or influence in a community or social structure to be in authoritative position. Are Narutards really elitists believing their beloved show and manga are the best, and those who disagree with are flame worthy? Wouldn’t we be classifying them as hard core fans, much like the die hard fan base of a sports team? We really wouldn’t classify the latter as elitists, why classify the former as elitists?
To be an elitist you have to have some form of power, influence, and/or control over the rest of the community. Anime fandom is an open, free market that offers almost unlimited flexibility for fans, and is a poor environment for elitists. Narutards have online communities for Narutards. Visual Novel fans have their own community. Anime fans have so much flexibility with where they want to be online, so there is really no class structure to foster and nurture elitists.
There is a difference between fanatics, snobs, and elitists.
Oh so you and Owen S are doing some mutual masturbation thingy? Let me join in tomorrow, with a field study then!!
@Double: I will believe that Naruto tends to cater to a very wide audience and younger watchers tend to be easily approachable in terms of viewing such an anime. That is perhaps why maturity levels might be a bit suspect. Still, it is of no fault of the technical ability of the anime fan, and to stereotype the vocal minority as the anime is myopic indeed. Yet, all humans are myopic, no?
@Senbon: I really think that your note of elitism is quite good. Do not worry about length. A long length is definitely fine. To add on, elitists often have little friends among themselves, since they generally distance from most, and the very few that can adhere to their views are few and beyond.
To add, the 3Ps are just something I randomly thought on the go, and I am quite happy with it when I got it out because it somewhat allows a more objective dealing of the anime. I mean, despite all the laughter I make about some genres, I always apply it subconsciously (the 3Ps) into the decision.
I believe that elitism is a human phenomenon, and as much as we think that the world is a perfect place, it is not. As long as there are human weaknesses in the mind, and the pain of an inferior complex is something that cannot be fixed by anyone but a doctor.
I also dislike loud fans, but that is more of my personal preference for some peace in my head than anything else. So ya ^^ Cheers!
@Maglor: I believe that it is often difficult to define whether it is original or cliche. To be honest, the art work of anime has been around for more than god knows how many years. To be honest, to really find something truly original will be crazily cool. It’s perhaps a rehash of various elements of film and working it out to make a whole new piece of its own. In a way, it is a new being, yet you can also define it as something that is old cliches.
I believe that the attachment of non-existent value must be noted by the motive of the person. If it’s merely misguided, it is not, but if it’s merely for the purpose of creating a superior complex, then the answer is apparent. However, to see through the confusion is a hard task indeed.
@Owen S: I believe that the definition of explaining what is about is not what an elite does, but more of a critic. In that case, it should not be an elite, but that will be under my contextualizing of the word. Of course, on another definition of the word, it might be accurate. However, elitism in the context of my word must be differentiated from critics.
@Drm: I generally feel that elitism tends to separate the lovers, and cause us an inability to look wider. For example, how many of us have missed an excellent series due to personal bias and how many people have you deprived of watching it because you forcefully tell them that it sucks, and you are right. I wonder.
@None: I believe that it can be applicable. Put it this way, there is always an issue as the anime community is growing in influence. That said, narutards are not elites but merely for the lack of a better word, “idiot”. I do think that elites have many facets that cannot be labeled as one. Not only they have such concepts, they also influence others, and have this snobbish and dismissing attitude. They also see themselves above others and often prove it against others.
In a way, you can tell that it no longer has any issue wi th the topic matter but a personality flaw.
@TJ: join the e-penor crew.
I believe that it is human nature to seek to be (or at least feel) superior to others, which relates to the tendency to feel uncomfortable or angry when someone flaunts their apparent superiority over oneself.
I have trouble coming to grips with the puzzling behaviour of some people who complain about being ostracised and bullied in Real Life (high school or whatever), and then are themselves as much of a social bully in fandoms. I’ve seen this happen many times, even to people who are otherwise quite intelligent and decent. It’s very odd.
I don’t really have anything against anyone’s tastes (if it does not tangibly harm anyone, provable in a legal sense). I have my own preferences, and considering they encompass everything from Card Captor Sakura to Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya to Lucky Star to Pani Poni Dash to Nagasarete Airantou, I don’t think I have any right to call myself an anime elitist as is defined by the “popular” notion of anime elitism.
I like to call myself a mindless fanboy who can spell, since it is, as far as I’ve noticed, quite accurate.
impz: I speak not of the gradual loss of the hobby as time goes by (that will be a given), but of a far more sinister plot that could destroy this hobby in one fell swoop. You know what I’m talking about.
TJ just wants to make it a tripenile affair. And who can blame him?
I enjoyed the article, especially with the use of dividers, headers, and pictures to overcome the wall-of-text effect. Also, I am against the blaming of a series for its fans. I don’t understand the use of terms of “Narutards” and “Bleachtards”. Overzealous/Irrational fans will always be annoying regardless of what series they are following at the moment.
“No one wants to feel like they are weaker than others, and elites in the negative connotation often have a huge inferior complex which makes them needy to prove their worth against others. ”
Or they could just be jerks…
But informative articles, yours and Owen’s, and their making me interesting in writing a post on it anime elitism as well~
Um, this is somewhat embarrassing, but I watch anime for hot guys. Alright, that’s slightly freakish because (as many people pointed out,) they are not real. However, that’s still my personal first and foremost requirement for anime. Everything, the plot, the character depth, can follow later. If I’m going to spend time waiting for the sub, torrenting the file and thirty minutes watching the show, there had better be a reward when I’m finished.
That aside, anime elitism isn’t, in my opinion, that big of a problem. I’m sure it aggravates certain people but, like everything else, it’s just a bit of human nature. What it really comes down to is we all think we’re better than each other. Really, watch, I bring thee the cycle:
First, the elitists hate the Naruto fans because, well, they watch Naruto. You get the idea. Second, the Naruto fans scream blasphemy, defending their sacred idol against the elites. Third, enter the ‘others’ who, while sharing little ground with either camp, is out to get both. They place themselves a level beyond the Naruto fan in terms of understand the playing field, and also a level beyond the elitists in terms of being open minded and accepting everything. Four, rinse, lather, repeat.
There are no exceptions. To say you cater to your own personal preferences is to believe that they are better, therefore, you’re gonna end up in one camp of another. I’m, personally, in the others camp.
This cycle isn’t going to ever end. I doubt it really has to exist in the first place. The fault lies within the person and unless said person decides to change, what is the point…of…all…this? You can’t purge the world of idiots. You can’t destroy one social construct and not have another created. This ‘problem’ is evident in all walks of life and it’s without cure.
Elitism is defined positively, yet carries a negative connotation in this discussion. It bugs me that to call myself an elitist is a bad thing, it bugs me that to have certain personal preferences (borderline biases) is a bad thing, it bugs me that every time I decide not to watch a series I might be considered a snobbish jerk who can’t appreciate the beauty of things.
What is the source of this conflict? I say again, it’s because we think we’re better than each other. And as an example, here we are, calling elitists jerks and people with “huge inferiority complex which makes them needy to prove their worth against others.” And I happen to somewhat disagree with that. It’s not to prove their worth against others, it’s just to blatantly announce and declare their worth better than other. As we are doing now, however, just from a different perspective (the one that we think is better.)
Oiy, I forgot a tag and half the thing ended up in italics. My apologies. T_T
Interestingly, deciding not to watch or like a certain anime series may well result in simultaneously being called an elitist (for not wanting to watch the series, and thus not “with the fans”) and not an elitist (for not wanting to watch the series, and thus “having no taste”).
Yes, it’s happened to me before. Mostly with regards to my indifference/dislike towards Elfen Lied.
It’s funny. I think I keep THAT on my blogrollchecklistthing because of “Production Values”; echo Kabitzin in saluting physical organization and presentation of this post.
A critic (I tend to follow Impz in semantics here for elitism vs. criticism) generally uses some kind of metric to evaluate creative works. Sometimes it is simple as a rating system (good v. bad; x/5 stars; etc), but it can get more complex. So then a Theory of Criticism (though there are other things called this) could be thought of as an analysis of why people like things.
The “3P” idea is one generalization of looking at why people like things, but I think it is a bit simplistic. Where does comedy fit in, for instance? What about nostalgia? What about fan-service (mentioned above, sort of)? Are these “genres”? Still, a comedy-fan does not like all comedies the same, so is there another scale for good-at-its-genre? Or do you think that can be broken down into 3P? What if the genre is not clearly defined? Well, a model doesn’t have to explain everything; 3P covers a great deal.
Interestingly, if you look at, say, books, rather than anime, then a lot of the academic, umm, well, “elite” tend to value any “genre” book lower than a non-”genre” book. I have never really understood this, particularly in terms of how things fall into one category or another (why is sci-fi a genre, but bildungsroman is not?). This seems to be less of an issue with anime, possibly because it hasn’t been around long enough for ivory tower intellectuals like me to come up with Correct Opinions for all the non-elites….well you get my point.
*Hides behind her pillow. Is it safe to come out yet?*
So does Narutard just refer to the overzealous fan or to all fans of Naruto. Because I do kind of get offended by being referred to by that title just because I happen to like the show.
As for the elitists snubbing shows just because it doesn’t meet whatever their standards are. Well I think that makes them the tards, because they are missing out on a ton of fantastic shows just because it didn’t meet their stupid criteria.
You really can’t judge as to whether or not you like something unless you at least give it a try right?
Oh another note. I got asked yesterday in #animeblogger why I would watch anime I don’t like. The answer is I am interested in looking at anime critically, and if I only watched things I like, I’d feel like I was missing part of the picture. Also, I’m slightly insane.
Reading a bunch of the other responses, I got a couple of other things to say. (is it possible?)
My personal approach to anime is this:
1. Am I willing to look beyond my boundaries? (That is, step outside Cardcaptor to sample Witch Hunter Robin and then turn to enjoy BKI?)
2. Am I able to LAUGH at my own fandom? Some people who read a few of my KakaIrus felt insulted. Because I can’t take all of my favorite pairings seriously. I think half the problem with these people is that they can’t laugh at what they like. They don’t admit the ridiculous (because there is some in everything).
3. Am I honest about my motivations? Why am I really really really watching this show? For KokuMono, I am honest. It’s the sexy bishies and the sexy voice actors. And maybe, the music. So. Yeah.
So, in total, I mean to say that people need to relax and just enjoy themselves… and choose to turn a blind eye. As someone above pointed out, communities are built around interest. Nobody (I hope) is putting a gun to your forehead to make you upload the latest Naruto (or whatever). And when it comes to anything else, like “shipping”. READ THE WARNING LABELS. And you’ll be fine.
It’s that simple.
Narutards refer to fans of naruto who act like retards, especially when the show is brought up. I like Naruto, but I don’t think I’m a Narutard.
P.S. This post is brought to you by Wii Opera. Naruto is in the auto-complete dictionary of this browser…
I only use the Wii for surfing the net when I’m too lazy to get out of the chair lol ^-^
Seems to be that the main conflict here is the different definition for “elitism”. Personally, it can’t be called elitist if someone merely comment that he/she likes a particular anime/genre/language/what-not, and tells you why he/she likes it. If that’s elitist, everyone’s an elitist. That’s personal taste and preference. However, an elitist would comment that he/she likes a particular anime/genre/language/etc, and tells you why YOU should like it.
Personally, it seems that the word “elitist” conveys a specific connatation of one being ABOVE the rest of the people. So it’s not so much WHAT they like, but WHO they are.
Because I don’t think I’m making a lot of sense above, I’m just going to stop rambling about it.
Sometimes I wonder why it’s all so complicated. If (A) says ANIME 1 is better than ANIME 2, I can agree or disagree. If he tells me that I should give up ANIME 2 for ANIME 1, I can disagree or refuse. So if he wants to be an elitist, I’ll either ignore him or defend my choice.
But then at heart I’m just a nobody never intending to make a difference or saying anything profound (as you can see from my less than coherent comment).
narutard huh?? I don’t think I’m one of those but I do like Naruto very (VERY!) much. Maybe they’re just too passionate about the show or they just started watching it and got really excited. ^_^
as with elitists..It all boils down to “minding your own business”!
lol. As a “immature western teen,” who got into anime because of those very Narutards, I’m actually quite grateful to them, though sometimes a little embarrassed. I don’t watch that anime anymore, though I do continue to enjoy the manga. I know I still haven’t seen enough anime to really have any wide knowledge or opinion on it. That’s why I like to look at sites like this.
Onto the elitist point. I think everyone has a little bit of an elitist attitude. Here where I live, I get a lot of crap just for being interested in anime. People just have the wrong conotations come up in their head when they hear the word. They either think “hentai” or they think of shonen shows like DragonballZ –which they seem to consider dumb. It makes me sad to think of them watching American Idol or such and considering that so much better. (Not that American Idol is that bad… there are a lot more pointless shows, but that’s a widely known one that comes to mind.) I say that people who are elitist like that are just missing out on a lot of good media.
Well, those who watched a ton of anime can’t help but has the elitist attitude somewhere inside their inner psycho/child/Naruto/Haruhi/whatever, because they are experienced. But I think these folks tend to be milder about their self perceived superiority to others. But you know, there are always some guys (tend to be guys) who just love to act like they’re better. Usually, these people act that way in just about everything. What I really dislike are people who don’t know anything and just think that anime is bad influence. They blame whatever problems onto other people/things/shows that they themselves don’t watch. Sorry to get off the track.
@Dkellis: Yep, the popular notion of anime elitism is perhaps a negative one, because you never really do see a person who is worth his pennies calling himself an elite. We don’t usually say, “Oh, he’s an elite, he’s so cool?” but more of “oh, darn elite.”.
If anything, elitists exist because trolls exist. Painful symbiotic relationship yes?
@Drm: Arr, got it, but that probably is more of a constitutional and commercial plot rather than one of anime elitism.
@Kabitzin: I am glad that you enjoyed the article since I am quite particular with the display of the writing entry. I mean, reading a whole wall of text is not what I call easy reading. It is to ease people to reading what you have to say, so that they can discuss more about it, yes? The labeling of irrational ones is an easy stereotype, and I must admit that even I succumb to such labeling easily sometimes. Yet, it is not the fact of the fans, and I doubt no one will call you an elite for hating a dumbass.
@TheBigN: Go go go, write write write! Jerks, perhaps. I feel like kicking them for sure.
@Xerox: So, I sometimes watch anime for cute little girls, but i am no pedo in real life. I believe that anime elitism is not that bad when it is created by normal people, but with someone of a character flaw, it becomes not only annoying but stifling. It’s painful to have a radio broadcasting and saying words that will make a rational man fight against you.
As said once again, it is fine to like certain anime, but never enforce your views, force your views under others and tell everyone that yours is better. That’s all ^^.
@Seth: Well, according to your little notes about the 3Ps. I might be doing an article on the analysis of art forms in the position of anime. I am not sure if I have the ability to do that, since I just thought of 3Ps on the go, and others might require another P (Perks). But who knows, i might sell this idea somewhere.
Yes, I think your analogy of academics (I am kinda one) is very accurate and anime as a form of ivory tower intellectual community is still afar. We are but a new colony.
@D.J: Hah, that is exactly what I said in my last paragraph. Both groups are idiots, but it sucks to be stuck with a label you are not. The thing is that for elitists, the world is easy: With me or be the S***.
@Sen: Relax? I wonder whether anyone can relax if their ego is hit hard by others.
@Asrai: Hmmm, if they can mind their own business, then they are no longer ivory tower “elitists”.
@Raymond: No problem at all. You are actually quite accurate to note on the gender difference in the distribution of people, even though there is definitely a plenty of snobbish people with guys and girls. That is perhaps yet another sign of elitism, to blame onto others if their things and problems do not work out. You are not out of the contribution of ideas to this topic.
wow, an indirect reference to me (hows that for elitism!)
facts that are self-evident:
- it is important to separate the objective from the subjective
- those that disagree with me are wrong because they either didn’t understand what i was saying or didn’t think through it as thoroughly as i did
- those that disagree with me and are able to make a point better than mine are smart, should be my friend
- those that do not like lucky star are the one who had their expectations crushed by the first episode
- i didn’t get eva either but i recognize that at least there is something to be gotten; in addition to having the “3 P’s” – thus making it a “good anime”
- nice article, want to be my friend
I personally think that elitism (by what you defined) is a form of bullying and should never be encouraged. Every anime fan has a right to what series they should give praise to or not, but they do not have a right to impose it on others.
That being said, don’t you think that most of these types of elitists exist in the web is because they could never achieve the same kind of superiority in real life? Just my two cents. ^_^
@Jaalin: Hahaha, definitely not an inference to you since I have to admit sadly that I seldom read RandomC (I generally do not watch the series blogged there ;_;). I was meaning that RandomC is an opinion leader, but not an elite in the negative connotation. So, the elite inference is not for you, but you can definitely assume it if you want ^+^. I don’t really want to be an elite though, it’s never nice (trust me, I know it from rl).
On a more serious note, I guess being strong in your view and being an elite in this negative connotation that I have portrayed it is just a fine line. I am sure in your case, it sounds like you have a very strong and opinionated view about something, but hey if you accept other views if they are reasonable, that isn’t too shabby.
Hahah, I definitely do not mind a friend, since having a friend is always better than being an enemy for sure. ^^
@Orange: Hmm, it is a form of bullying according to how i define it, and it seems somewhat realistic in the evolution of the anime community. I just think that all forms of elitists happen, but maybe you are right. The power of being able to influence online requires quite a different set of skills compared to real life.
The irony of course, Impz, is that your post is but elitism in another light. The idea that the objective, impassionate route to take is very much what it preaches against. After all, such ideas are not spoken for the sake of being spoken, but to be heard by others, and agreed upon.
I know that this is going beyond the reaches of simply anime based elitism, but one can’t dismiss that what makes an elitist is common in all its various forms. At its base, elitism comes from a person’s need to pass some form of judgment on another person, thing, or idea. Your personal of what anime elitism is for example, is elitism as well, albeit a light form of it. In that sense, elitism is impossible to completely avoid, and is indeed part of human nature.
On a basic level, Elitists are those that form a “higher” level of standards regarding a particular issue based on opinion derived from a particular source. Rarely is the opinion completely ignorant, but more just limited in scope of view. They are necessary, if not essential, for the formation of ideas. The idea of not cheating on a test and observing law and order for example fit the a conservative elitist view point while survival of the fittest and ends justify the means type views fit a more liberal elitist view. (Liberal and Conservative in a social sense, not political).
The idea of a symbiotic relationship between elitism and trolling is also troublesome. Trolling can be defined by most as a poster whose goal is to gain a negative reaction of some sort. It has its deviations but thats the most fitting one I think. In general, an elitist poster on the other hand posts not for the sake of simply getting a rise out of those that are not “elite”, but rather to spread his ideas and standards. The way those ideas are reacted to, and the way the elitist counter-reacts are given more attention from the looks of it, but the underlying reason is still there. The 3ps for example can be seen as a way of spreading a particular method of judging an anime. It’s a pretty elitist method, but I doubt it will be reacted to as such by most.
The reason for that brings me to my last point. (I don’t quite think I am making any actual series of points but it sounds nice to an insomnia ridden mind.) Elitism as a social term, much like the term fan boy, is given a pretty much negative definition. This is of course, with valid reasons as many less than friendly personalities fall easily into this particular negative stereotype. The idea that you never say “Oh an elitist, cool”, is because to be defined as an elitist, the prerequisite of being disliked, and being hated for having a haughty attitude exists. However, simply viewing the elitist personalities from a more basic level results in fitting many more into it. For example, the entire blogging community can be more or less viewed as elitists on some level. If you feel strongly enough about anime to blog about it, you obviously have some views on them you wish to share.
So what exactly was I trying to say with the above paragraphs? That we needed to revise the definition of what is an elitist? A commentary on human nature? The social mindset of your average anime blogger? Bah, probably not. All I know is that I have successfully procrastinated another 20 minutes from writing the paper on the CIA and the Politics of Heroin.
So much text, so small, my poor eyesight.
Anyways, I’m under the impression that turning the other cheek to this issue and simply walking away from it knowing that you’re the better person, which is mostly what I do, is the only simple way out.
Response to Impz — The thing about “never enforce your views, force your views under others and tell everyone that yours is better,” is that he has a right, under American law anyways, to do whatever the heck he wants. He can say whatever he wants to and no one else but himself can regulate what he says. You can’t really stop him by simply telling, “Stop, you’re being irrational.” Stifling it may be, there is no cure for this.
And, as odd as this may sound, he can impose his “irrational” opinions on you. Screaming, “Shut up! You’re wrong! You can’t tell other people what to do!” isn’t really going to help. He can tell you do whatever he wants, it’s YOUR (I’m staying away from tags, >.
XD, the rest of my post got cut off because of that darn emoticon. Why am I so tragically foiled by these tags in my attempts to comment?? My apologies once again for the double post. Here’s the rest of it:
That’s my problem with this whole anime elitism thing,(which isn’t even a good word to describe this anymore) it’s not only THEIR fault. If you think of elitism as bullying, then you’re going to have to stand up for yourself. You have a choice not to be bullied by the elitist. You have a choice to not listen to the irrational man. If you’re easily swayed by his words then, well, you are at fault as much as he is.
I tell my friends to watch something else besides Bleach, so I can talk to them about my favorite shows. They don’t want to, so they don’t. They don’t call me an elitist, we simply share different opinions.
And here I am, being an elitist, trying to impose my, possibly irrational views, on others. Eh, the irony, the irony, elitists complaining about other elitists…XD
@Tura: I guess the theme of elitism when treated with a neutral context in which we are really talking about a higher standard that should be attained, might be applicable to the post. Definitely, I cannot deny that elitism, without the social complexity and connotations given onto it, is somewhat portrayed in the article. REverting to the basic level will definitely fit more, but it might be inappropriate to be used in such a time.
However, I believe that there is perhaps a huge distinction of elitism and critics. I guess my main distinction between the two is to spread his ideas and standards in a non suffocating and rational way in which people can accept it.
Perhaps.
@Xerox: Ya, it is bloody annoying that people like to tell me how good a certain series is, and I think I have repeated too many times to explain why I do not like it. Note that I do not think that the series isn’t good, but just not up to my taste.
I believe that standing up for yourself might work if it is merely a physical form of bullying. However, being an elitist is more than shoving someone and being irrational (at times) but more importantly to assume a superior position compared to others. The part about being superior than another person and the cynical emotions for it will be more important to define an elite.
Response to Impz II — I’m guessing the root of the problem is the fact that the anime elitist superiority complex personality annoys, aggravates, angers, and just plain pisses off a lot people. It, fundamentally, has nothing to do with the person’s subjective views on anime, but rather it’s the shortcomings of one’s personality that most thought to be disagreeable.
I’d still say standing up for yourself, what you believe in, is the best way to combat anime elitism. No matter what the elitist irrationally, and possibly offensively, promotes, as long as you maintain an opinion that is yours or an opinion formed in agreement with others, the only thing you really need is the realization that you truly enjoy this hobby, and it’s not to prove you superiority.
impz: Ohohoho, it may be a commercial plot and whatnot, but it was triggered off because of said elitism.
And this is why we cannot have good things.
Wow…
I used to think I was pretty in with this sub-culture, as in general understanding, but it seems I’ve been missing a lot of discussion about anime.
As for elitists, if everyone who really thought they were assholic (can’t live without ass-o-haul) morons and wanted them gone ignored them, they would die of sudden lack of ego and their existential vacuum would suck them up as they realized that they were, well, assholic morons who nobody gave a shit aboot.
Really, if we all get together and merely have fun, sometimes intelligent and sometimes just retarded conversations, and show respect for each other, then we’ll be fine.
Oh wait, that’s why communism failed.
Damn.
As for which anime or genre or whatever is better, it’s all opinion, so screw what everybody else said. Wheeeeeeee!
Ah, good times.
@Xerox: I am one that is the evader of such elitism. When they talk, I ignore and close my ears. The technique of one ear in, one ear out has been perfected for a long time. Hah! On a more serious note though, as much as it is the ideal, many people like to feel superior for the sake of it. It is just the same with the reverse idea: who ever wants to feel inferior?
@Drm: I cannot comment on it since it will take me a while. I do not agree or disagree since both sides have their points.
@Marshall: Perhaps, you have. A slight glance in the anime aggregators will tell you that there are quite a few stinging topics in this genre of blogging that seems like rather obscure and impossible. Yet, it definitely exist.
If anything, just go into some random irc/yahoo/google chatroom about anime and ask them to get along. I wish you luck. Anime fans, like all genres, have good and bad ones. We just have to shut ourselves with the bad ones because they will go on ranting ever and ever.
Your last word is the best: It is ALL opinion.
hello!!!i am a otaku from spain….manga 4 ever!!!!dew…bye
Ultimately, you are all underdeveloped young men who masturbate over animated children so why do you insist on all the I CAN USE BIG WORDS crap? The world is full of far better adjusted real men who are too busy enjoying life to waste their time commenting on ‘anime’ blogs, the saddest waste of life there is. I was one of you once, I thank God that a real woman came and helped me to leave this pseudointellectual world. In the odd break when not watching my children grow up, I do like to return and observe – I only comment now against my better judgement to say leave the blogosphere, get out and meet some real people, have sex, get wasted an have a real life. I am not trolling, I love you all like brothers, just want to help you help yourself. I know this comment will strike a chord with some of you – probably those who wish they were not going to bed alone. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO. Peace out.
do you know sailormoon and why they are not giving the showw oh and i like your thing and the naruto
wat is anime ? that is what i have been asking for the last 2 weeks please help. iam writting a report and i dont noe wat to do
help please
OK no offense but WE Naruto lovers are NOT stupid you are so what we love Naruto it rocks and if you can’t see that then to bad >:b IT ROCKS AND YOUR LUCKY YOUR NOT IN MY SCHOOL MOST OF US WOULD OF BETTEN YOU UP! loser
~Naruto’s biggest fan
I agree with you on the whole “Naruto” thing. I`m also not a fan of Bleach myself. But I cannot stand Naruto FREAKS (Narutards) I like the show, but not enough to freak out about it. The plot is somewhat okay, but its an extremely long show. I agree with you though. You put it in the best words…
ya ryte but some time its work may b ..!!
I believe that an idiot is someone who believes they can judge the intellect of a mass populace by the programs they like to watch.
I WANT ME IN THIS PIC!
my friend is an elitst and it is so annoying. I would also say it means to consider the animes they watch far superior to the ones you do. Also i have found they are always amazing artists and come off as superior, because they feel so.
Oh my goodness! It is like you understand my mind! You seem to know so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I think that you could do with some pictures to drive the message home a bit, besides that, this is outstanding blog post. A wonderful read. I will certainly return again.
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Anime elitism: why I’m cooler than you and why that doesn’t matter (shockingly delayed editorial #2)…
Maybe it’s the nature of the Internet that ‘elitist’ behaviour and views are so widespread, no matter how much they are derided. I believe that a contributing factor to the perception of elitism among anime fans though is that the fandom is a…
[...] free market that offers … To add, the 3Ps are just something I randomly thought on the go, and …http://www.thatanimeblog.com/2007/07/02/so-anime-elitism-is-a-good-thing-no-one-told-me/User:pheoine – SideReelWent to season 2 episode 11 – add water – 2×11 – Treasure Hunt : online Video [...]
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