Finally we start to get to the meat of geass, as the writers give us a lot of tasty plot material of the supernatural type. Also, loyalties on all sides are tested, even ones we thought would never crack. Plus we got some shots of a younger Charles with some really long hair. Overall, shit was hitting the fan throughout this episode.
As should be pretty obvious by now, even before this scene, Marianne and C.C. were buddies back in the day. In the side materials C.C. meets Lelouch years ago (visuals provided in some really quick shots of the start of episode 1) and it is implied by C.C. that Marianne sent her to check up on Lelouch. She’s also still talking to her when she’s by herself in rooms, and it’s still kind of creepy talking to dead people.
To be honest, I think the old man wig curls look more badass then the hippy, disheveled hair. Although that’s nowhere near as bad as V.V.’s ugly-ass haircut. They also took the time to remind us of their contract to “slay the gods,” whatever that ends up meaning.
Just to quiet all of the conspiracy theorists out there who pointed out they didn’t exactly show Rollo killing Shirley, he admits it here right at the start. He’s one demented little kid, that’s for sure. And once again Lelouch wins best actor as he smiles at him and tells him what a good job he did protecting their secret. They also didn’t forget some random yaoi bait shots, it may be a last farewell…
Really, really creepy
And one could hear the million cries of the Schniezel x Canon fangirls
As I mentioned in the teaser, we have the beginnings in this episode of loyalties cracking on all sides. C.C. is somewhat apprehensive over the change in plans, but tells him that she will see this through with him until the end. Her actions later on in the episode tend to confirm it, but there is that tension there. Up until this episode, throughout the entire season, if there was only one ally in the world that Lelouch could absolutely count on it was C.C., who told him that in the end she will be the only one standing with him. It may be a bumpy ride until then, but I think that will still hold true. Plus a C.C. service shot, wee!
Surprise! Something to note, V.V. seems much more interested in C.C. than Lelouch, starting to offer him freedom in exchange for turning her over. But more importantly, Rolo has a really, really lame looking combat suit on. C.C. looks so sexy in comparison, they obviously need to coordinate tailors.
It’s been awhile Kallen service shot, how I missed you. *Sniff* This was the really obvious shot in last week’s preview that should have massively flagged to everyone that it was Kallen. Also, this scene confirms the low intelligence score she got last episode in that chart- the fact she still hadn’t realized that Nunally and Lelouch were royalty. Hell, she may not even put two and two together and surmise that Lelouch is a prince. Not everyone can have beauty and brains like C.C. I suppose
Mmmm, Toudou and his woman, eating apples in a hotel room with a double bed. Little bit of Black Knights lovin’ eh? This scene does manage to lay the foundation for episode 16, as the countries that will make up Lelouch’s anti-Brittania bloc begin to form up together.
No mecha show is complete without creepy, super-powered children. Although in CG they get blown to bits within a minute of appearing by Rolo-niichan (lol). The cult here is more than just a research facility, it is an active “breeder” I guess you could say, of geass users. The Black Knights are understandably hesitant about killing all of these kids and unarmed civilians, but they nonetheless follow orders. More signs of loyalties cracking, but I don’t see the Black Knights bailing on him anytime soon. Lelouch still has a long ways to go before he has enough forces to challenge Brittania.
They fished the Siegfried out of the sea, but not the Gawain? =(
In case you still had doubts, Orange-kun is in with Lelouch for the long haul due to his loyalty to Marianne. He doesn’t really care about what Zero did to him, he’s willing to follow him regardless. Too bad he’ll probably be relegated to useless side character for awhile, at least until they find some fun uses for a geass canceller. And V.V. sure got pissed when Orange-kun dropped Marianne’s name on him, she was likely working against V.V. and the Emperor to thwart their plans.
The aforementioned weakness mentioned in episode 5?
I knew he wouldn’t be able to get rid of Rolo that quickly, it would have been too convenient. Unfortunately the crazed otoutou lives to see another day.
That…is a big set of guns. I’d like to note that in this scene and before, Cornelia seems to blame V.V. much more than Lelouch for Euphie’s death. She had the opportunity here to blow Lelouch away, but instead focused her anger on V.V., who is the source of the geass in her mind. More and more hints of a possible alliance between Lelouch and Cornelia maybe? Kukuku.
Gah! Just tell us what your wish is and how it’s going to turn out! C.C., you sexy thing, you are way too mysterious for me. I must know! This is the first time I recall ever seeing C.C. cry, but here she really shows what path she has chosen, apparently destroying all of the research and ending the line of geass users. Now the only ones left that we know about would be Lelouch, the Emperor, and Rolo.
RAAAAAAAAAAGE! Suzaku has already earned the brand new nickname “Drugzaku” on /a/ for his dastardly actions. So much for being a moralfag eh? At this point he’s definitely no better than Lelouch, and also no longer feels the need to hide under a shield of righteousness. If he seriously messes with Kallen I’m starting my own revolution against Sunrise -_-
Alliances and loyalties continue to crack even amongst these two. For whatever reason V.V. did not tell the Emperor he was going to try and kill Lelouch, perhaps because the Emperor wanted him to live for his plans. Also, V.V. was thinking about lying to Charles about Cornelia being captured earlier in the episode. The Emperor is not pleased, despite looking pimp as usual in curls.
Ohhhhhhhh snap! I’ve missed crazy ass cliffhangers like this, and this is the first time we’ve seen Charles with such an expression of sick pleasure. The fact of Lelouch being dragged all the way to Brittania and to the Sword of Akasha (complete with Jupiter imagery) should mean a big revelation for us next week about the truth of geass. It’s been a long time coming, and frankly I can’t wait.
Next Episode:
Low quality extended preview of episode 15.
There’s just that one shot in both the regular preview and the extended preview, it looks like Lelouch is going to be taken to the “World of C.” There, he gets to hang out with C.C. in a crazy world with paintings! Wahoo~
Crusader’s Angry Drunken Rant
I sense that this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.
…and 10 or more kids. Sorry boys looks Like Kallen has found a new man. Lulu still has C2, sort of…
Yes except the Britannians don’t rape corpses, in fact they don’t rape period…
Well the Black Knights have really done it now killing unarmed old, men , women, and children. Was it easy? Well they didn’t lead them so much… I am sure Shirley is happy to know that Lulu killed off an entire population of unarmed people whom she never met using her death as justification while her murderers got away. Bravo Lulu not only did you snub Shirley at her funeral you failed to off the guy who pulled the trigger, just as planned right?
Yes! Yuri Sis-con 4TW!
All Cornelia needed was a rubber band and pocket knife. Cornelia you great ancestor is proud.
It’s no Koning Monster but it’ll do…
So yeah C2 is starting top play her own games and commit genocide along with Lulu. Silly Black Knights still believing that they are doing the right thing, but I guess conquering Saudi Arabia and forcing them into your Union of Unwilling States is a most just cause. Just like slaughtering women and children. While most of them are fools Suzaku used evidence to draw the conclusion that Shirley did not an hero herself on her on her own so the logical answer is that Lulu did it since all the evidence was wiped. I see that Suzaku is an advocate of bad cop and honestly using drugs to get an answer is preferable to beating it out of Kallen though I suspect every Kallen fanboy is a closet S&M guy so having Suzaku beat Kallen bloody might be a turn on…
Oh be still my heart…
Well do what we must…
Gundam 00 intervenes on your preview!
Cornelia-hime was awesome as usually breaking out of her cell hot wiring a wrecked Knightmare and modifying it into a an ad-hoc artillery unit. My Princess is shining more brilliantly with each passing ep though now I want to kill Orange-kun for touching my liege in such a rude manner. I hope my Cornelia-hime is going to slap the shit of of Orange-kun so that he can have accidental buttsechs with Lulu. Because I am sure Cornelia can punch Orange-kun hard enough to rip through dimensional barriers.
96 Comments
Nice to see an unbiased opinion on this episode. Everywhere it’s a Suzaku/Lelouch fight that’s so annoying >< One of the main reasons I stick to this blog.
I got left with a feeling of episode 22 though *shiver*
lol…. about Kallen she already knows they are royalty.. she is obviously playing a part and acting like she doesn’t or didn’t know….
(C.C has already told her everything in the one year gap, it was confirmed in some interview or magazine.)
Who was it that said that Suzaku wasn´t evil before? Hell now he´s starting to use drugs to get what he wants? Oh my god what a damn asshole he is.
The part which I really dislike though, Kallen believing Lelouch actually would kill Shirley.
Fucking no, Rolo didn´t get blown to pieces this time, hopefully he´ll meet his doom soon. There has never been a Sunrise character that I wanted to kill more than Rolo.
But oh well. I need to see what Lelouch will do to outsmart his father in the next episode. What a blast it would be if Lelouch managed to put his Geass on his father. Instant win
I bet all those paintings were made by Clovis. Being dead, he has way too much time on his hands.
They fished the Siegfried out of the sea, but not the Gawain? =(
The Gawain’s systems were recycled into the Shinkiro(sp?), Lelouch’s new KnightMare frame.
Great Episode, IMO. Lots of interesting revelations. Sunrise keeps us guessing with lots of twists and turns.
It seems no matter what evidence is presented to Suzaku he’s convinced that Lelouch is a villain through and through.
I don’t see a Kallen x Suzaku pairing, mostly because Suzaku is showing just how ruthless he can be, even to people that he knows.
For the most part, Lelouch has tried not to involve his friends (and family) in his activities going to great lengths to protect them (ever since Season One’s hotel hijacking episode).
I hope next week’s episode gives us some more insight into C.C.’s background and the nature of these “contracts” that Geass users have.
@QueenJaydes
Well we’ve had out or Lelouch vs. Suzaku discussions long ago. To be honest there isn’t a point anymore because most people realize what’s going on, they are both becoming much more similar then they’d like to admit.
@Bob Bobby
I don’t think she’s capable of faking much of anything. And the Drama CD episode you are referring to doesn’t go into details as to what she told Kallen about Lelouch. Just that she told her some things, unless there is some other source I’m not aware of.
@Manga
I’m sure Rolo will meet his end eventually, in fact I think many characters will expire by the end of this show.
I don’t think he’s going to pull that off this quickly, it’s a bit pre-mature a few episodes before the end~
@Toyoko
He seems to be spending his time talking with daddy.
@Halcyon
Yeah but I think they said it was too wrecked to do anything to fix it whole, so they cannibalized it for parts to make other stuff.
I don’t see that pairing either, one would doubt she would be rabu rabu for a guy looking to inject drugs in her for information.
@Crusader
You know, I don’t think a research facility for making superhumans would be considered “innocent.” I seem to remember Nazi facilities like that getting bombed quite often in WWII.
Wow, your review was amazing. I didn’t even notice half the things you did in this episode. I’m gonna need to watch it again…
@Calawain
So what if those Geass people were humping and breeding like rabbits they never went out and did some screwed up shit while they were in the cave. We are supposed to judge people for who they are right? So why not these Children of the Corn? We all know that things get ugly when a Geass user goes into the human world, like V2, Charles, Lulu, Rollo, Mao, and C2. What did those old men ever do to anyone? I thought we were making a pure and blue world here, and not continuing old policies…remember this is supposed to be a revolution, and the rebellion will not be vilified right?
no… there was a magazine that was getting questions about whether Kallen knew or not… and i don’t remember if it was the director or producer that said that C.C told her the details within that one year gap and it will be shown in the DVD short episodes that are going to come out… something like that..
Here’s what bob bobby is talking about, from the newsletter which has the Turn 15 keyword…(if I had a date or a proper number, I would provide this).
“Kawaguchi’s column:
I heard from Producer Yukawa that he received many mails asking if Kallen has found out Lelouch is a prince when Nunnally became the governor of Area11.
Between Stage 25 of last season and Turn 1 of this season, C.C. and Kallen has
been working together. (The illustration drama in the DVD/Blu-ray Vol.1 will be
describing their life during this period. Don’t miss it!) During these days, C.C. already told Kallen about why Lelouch chose to become Zero, and he’s a Britannian prince.
C.C. and Kallen are so different in personality, yet they fit so well together.
See you next week!”
I didn’t translate this, someone on GameFAQs did, so I’m not responsible for its contents, etc. etc. Might want to ask around to confirm it.
“And one could hear the million cries of the Schniezel x Canon fangirls”
let them cry, their tears will flood like the river…
…urgh, I cant imagine Susaku and Kallen together… I rather see NunnallyxKallen pair rather than this…
Canon makes me uneasier than even Psycho Rolo…Don’t know why. (He himself did tell Milly that he is ‘weird’.)
The scene with Toudou and Chiba-in a hotel room-with a bed for two-and a plate of sliced apples apparently (which I failed to notice before reading your blog) did raise my eyebrow. But they make one kick ass couple, yes.
“Drugzaku”…*snickers*. Good one!
@Crusader:
Lelouch wants to get rid of the source of Geass in Shirley’s honor, the “source of sin” as he put it. And the source happens to be this Geass cult and V.V. where they breed Geass users and such. Yes, the kids are innocent, but they are “Rolos” waiting to happen. And do we need anymore Rolos running loose in the world? And yes, Lelouch is contradicting himself, because he wants to be the only Geass user on the planet and continue to have the power of the king for himself. But the slaughter, while it does work in his plans and favor, is not a pretense for Shirley’s death. This Geass cult would only complicate things for the peaceful world that Lelouch strives to create as well. So, it is a win-win situation for him (and not meaningless slaughter, while it was coldhearted, unlike what happened with the Nazis and Jews).
Cornelia is my ‘hero’ine.
I will probably get flamed for this, but I can’t completely hate Psycho Rolo. *sighs* Though I did like Shirley (one of the very, very few innocent characters, aside from Nunnally, Euphemia, etc.), Rolo has been a pawn almost his entire life, which led to him being f*cked up, so you can’t really really really really really hate him, can you? (Since his f*cked up actions are not entirely his fault?) Yes, this means I am kind of hesitant to see him be killed off just yet. *Runs screaming from the flamers*
Code Geass gives me life. (Sad, I know.)
@Calawain
I see your point, but it still happens. I’m still waiting for Suzaku to get over himself and realize that lelouch and him really aren’t that different in ideals. The ending pictures (and archetypal imagery) all point to suzaku joining Lelouch at the very last minute. This is the first (and only) time i’ll ever compare this to death note, but like in death note, there are so few “holders of justice” Who actually is “justice” anymore? All I can think of is Nunally and Rivalz. Rivalz is too small a character though.
@ Suma Sang (don’t worry, not a flame) I truly liked rolo’s character before episode 13 because, to me, I thought he was getting better, a little less like the geass kids. Apparently that was a mask ><
@Suma Sang
Tacitus once said that, “they make a wasteland and call it peace.” That is what Lulu is doing right now and truth be told there is nothing more peaceful than desolation.
Rolo is awesome and long may he kill!
Make way for Rolo-nii!
Say hey! It’s Rolo-nii!
Hey! Clear the way of his motorbike cab!
Hey you!
Let him through!
Or it’s you he’ll stab!
You don’t wanna be the first one to earn his ire!
Make way!
Here he comes!
Sound the bells! Load the guns!
‘Cause you’re gonna hate this guy!
Rolo-nii! Murderous He!
Rolo al-Sarshes
Kills for fun
Give him a gun
Then watch the spree!
Now knightmare pilots are dead.
And Urabe’s vent-ed
‘Cause Rolo’s sick in the head–Undoubtedly!
Rolo-nii! Mighty is he!
Rolo al-Sarshes!
Strong as ten regular men
Take it from me!
He faced the unarmed horde
One thousand kids with no swords.
But who sent Shirley to the Lord?
Why, Rolo-nii!
He’s got so many big backers
Secret armies
But they’d work for free
When it comes to expensive type knightmares
Yeah he’s had a few,
I’m telling you,
It’s a world-wide conspiracy!
Rolo-nii! Shouta is he!
Rolo al-Sarshes!
No goatee! I wish it could be!
Closer to me!
Well, get on out in that square
Come steel your nerves and prepare!
To gawk and grovel and stare at Rolo-nii!
He’s got ninety-five tiny little sisters!
(He’s called the rebellion, let’s fight the rebelliom)
And to join him he charges no fee!
(‘Cept your siblings! Kill your siblings!)
He bends time to his will for fun!
(Proud to work for him)
Time bows to his whim!
It’s best for them!
It’s just scared into loyalty to Rolo-nii!
Rolo-nii!
Rolo-nii!
The adversary! Rolo al-Sarshes!
Lloyd, wishes that he, was half as crazy
Well he saw the Vincent and thought “Why,–I think I’ll give it a try.”
Next thing you know, Shirley’s hit the floor,
He’s got beams, over-drive
And fang-oos galore!
Takes an alias, heads out to China,
And shows Stupid Urabe what for!
Can’t flee from Rollo-nii!
non-geass related.
That Gundam trailer had me drooling for a bit, that is before I saw the 00 gundam fly in. God it was ugly… I had initially seen its design on one of those scans from Newtype, and had a pretty low opinion of it. I was hoping it’d look a bit better when in motion. Unfortunately, it looks even uglier when it flies around! The 00 gundam doesn’t have Exia’s flippy sword thing anymore either, instead, I think he’s holding a gunblade of sorts. *sighs* If the 00 looks this horrible, I really don’t want to imagine what Keldim (Dynames upgrade) or the Seraph(?) (Virtue upgrade) will look like when flying. That being said though, the Kyrios upgrade does look rather nice and… uh… aerodynamic?
According to the internets, using drugs to interrogate someone is now equivalent to a war crime while murdering the elderly, women and children is now legitimate defense. Oh how people flipflop.
firstly about Rollo since he admitted to stabbing Shirley well thats that forget the benefit of the doubt i just hope he dies already the sad thing about all this is that Rollo was showing some signs of improvement (as stated above by Queen Jaydes)
when i read the overview of the ep from suki and later on watched it i could not help but think that Calawain would rage again but the chances of Drugzaku(nice nickname by the way*snicker*) is really low as much as i hate Drugzaku i noticed that his hands where shaking when he took the box out so he might be just bluffing or if he is serious i hope that Nunnaly was eavesdropping so that she could stop him
Lulu going genocide on the order was not really surprising since Shirley really was important to him also we already had the inclination that he was on the warpath pity those that stand in his way or his desired destination
@Ina
I watch it more than once before I write this stuff, and add that to my lawyer’s instincts and I tend to pick up on a lot of stuff.
@Crusader
I’m not saying what he did was right, he did it in a fit of rage over Shirley. Instead of blaming himself he outsourced it to the cult. I was just making the point that these folks are not so innocent.
@Bob Bobby/XXX
Ah I didn’t know about that one. I’ve listened to the Sound Drama from the most recent CD that is about what Kallen and C.C. were up to in that year but I didn’t know they also talked about everything. I’ll buy that for now, seems somewhat believable. Although Kallen being able to bluff her way out of anything strikes me as odd, she hasn’t been able to do it in the past.
@EvilDevil
The wrath of yaoi fangirl shippers can be quite scary, we must tread carefully.
@Suma Sang
Rolo may have a reason why he did what he did, in his own mind he really was helping his brother. Although it was influenced by the mention of Nunally, Rolo probably did it for his twisted reasons. And those reasons are born of the environment he was brought up in, as an assassin.
@QueenJaydes
I’d prefer they didn’t unite in the end to do anything aside from protecting Nunally. I’d hate to see all that buildup of animosity disappear, they need to really have at each other in the end. Of course I hope Lelouch wins, but that’s a whole nother story =)
@Onizuka
I think many of us would like a particularly bloody end for Rolo, we’ll see. And yes, we can only hope Nunally comes in to save Kallen, because my rage would know no bounds.
I’m starting to get tired of seeing Suzaku blaming Lelouch for everything wrong in that world. It’s like watching an episode of Inuyasha again. >_< (Not to say there’s anything wrong with Inuyasha.) “There are demons in this village, it must be Naraku’s fault!” “Demons are planning to attack the village! This must be Naraku’s fault!” “Look! That little girl over there just sneezed! Now I know this is Naraku’s doing!” Jeez, Sazaku, give Lelouch a break. He is an evil bastard (in his own way) but he’s not responsible for everything that has gone wrong in Code Geass.
@Calawain
I don’t know man even if the children are super soldiers in training does that mean that at that stage they are evil? Even if they might turn out to be future terrorists even I have some reservations about conducting a preemptive strike to prevent a future problem from starting. The old folks maybe but I doubt those kids had much say in becoming what they were…
@Rob
Having evidence that Shirley killed herself under geassed circumstances is not going to be easily explained away without Lulu. Lulu’s preferred method of killing is to geass people into killing each other so there is a precedent and Lulu’s done it often enough that it looks like the streak of a serial killer. Lulu was involved and to his knowledge the only one with the Geass of Command is Lulu.
Given how Lulu prides himself on everything going as planned letting Shirley die accidentally during an operation seems like a stretch. It doesn’t help that Lulu wiped out a bunch of evidence so it looks like a cover up. If it was an accident or an unforeseen thing then why didn’t Lulu go pay his respects? His presence, the cover up, and his noted absence from the funeral seem to make Lulu guilty circumstantially in any cases seeing as how Lulu has a penchant for destroying hard evidence the only evidence you get is going to be circumstantial.
I hope the Emperor noticed that Lelouch is one of his best creations. Our good old Charlie is going to retire and give his business to the best one – either Schneizel or Lelouch. Or Nunnally, if she learns how to use propaganda, censorship and guns.
It’s naive to think that any army kills only soldiers ;P
War is a shitty thing, people get killed by accident and even superheroes can’t help it. That old guy with a cane and a puppy may be hiding a gun somewhere! You can’t just pop in and not harm anyone – unless you have an extremely big screen with lulu and his Geass telling everyone to sit down, have some tea, and cooperate. Too bad the writing staff decided to use the old way of solving problems, genocide, that is.
Machiavelli knew such basics of being a good Sovereign.
Might as well kill the kids with Geass or you’d probably end up with more Rolos on your hand. And NO ONE wants that -_-.
@Crusader
Having evidence that Shirley killed herself under geassed circumstances is not going to be easily explained away without Lulu. Lulu’s preferred method of killing is to geass people into killing each other so there is a precedent and Lulu’s done it often enough that it looks like the streak of a serial killer. Lulu was involved and to his knowledge the only one with the Geass of Command is Lulu.
This is a fair point except for the fact that the only people Lelouch has Geass’d into suicide are Britannian soldiers and support staff, he’s never Geass’d a civilian into suicide (not that I’ve seen anyway). Furthermore, this contradicts the entire point of Lelouch jumping off a building to save Shirley in the previous episode. Why risk would Lelouch risk his life to save her if he was just going to kill her later on? Suzaku’s not being logical. He’s allowing his personal vendetta against Lelouch to color his judgment. This episode only illustrates how much farther Suzaku is separating from his moral high ground. While Lelouch may be a manipulator, Suzaku himself has shown that he’s willing to use his friends, allies and close associates to get what he wants (Ex. When he lied to Nunnally and used her to test if Lelouch got his memories back). IMO, using a blind, crippled girl as a litmus test is pretty low. Especially when it’s someone he grew up with.
Another important thing to point out is the fact that Shirley expressly told Suzaku that she liked Lelouch and has forgiven him for his past transgressions. In light of all this information, what motivation could Lelouch have for Geassing her into Suicide? What Suzaku is doing here is transposing the entire Euphemia situation onto Shirley. He doesn’t realize that Lelouch’s Geassing of Euphemia was entirely accidental and that despite being forced to kill her (to save countless other Japanese), Lelouch also mourned and regretted her death.
Given how Lulu prides himself on everything going as planned letting Shirley die accidentally during an operation seems like a stretch.
Shirley was an unforeseen variable. The entire reason why Lelouch left Shirley with Suzaku was to avoid getting her involved in his conflict. From Lelouch’s standpoint, she was already taken care of. It was Shirley’s impetus to run into the battle area to help Lelouch.
It doesn’t help that Lulu wiped out a bunch of evidence so it looks like a cover up. If it was an accident or an unforeseen thing then why didn’t Lulu go pay his respects? His presence, the cover up, and his noted absence from the funeral seem to make Lulu guilty circumstantially in any cases seeing as how Lulu has a penchant for destroying hard evidence the only evidence you get is going to be circumstantial.
In all fairness, there really wasn’t much evidence to begin with. There was a gun, which was used by a professional assassin (Rolo) to commit the act and maybe some footprints? But (from the episode), it looks like Lelouch went straight from the scene of the crime, to plotting for the destruction of the Geass Cult. There was no grand coverup to conceal the truth.
I believe this issue, along with others, may be resolved in Episode 17 (if the spoilers are any indication).
But yeah, the bottom line is, it doesn’t make any sense to save a girl just to kill her later on. And just because Shirley’s dead, it doesn’t give Suzaku the greenlight to use Gestapo tactics in trying to extract information from Kallen!!
@Halycon
Of course Kallen reached the same conclusion herself, with less immedaite information, even faster…
Both elevens that have peaked behind the GM screen came to the conclusion “yeah, that’s something Lelouch would do.” Telling.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going back into mourning fo Suzaku Kurugi’s idealism. Kid finally threw in the towell. It was the responsible call to make, yeah, but something rare has gone from the world.
Eh, it’ll probably be back soon enough once this council of despair crashes and burns.
@QueenJaydes:
Rolo won me over when Lelouch used the “older brother” card on him (when Lelouch pretended to protect him because he couldn’t forget his brotherly feelings of love) and with the intent of destroying Rolo later on. Yet, Rolo officially killed what loyalty I had for his character when he offed Shirley from the stage AND lied about how Shirley was going after Lelouch to shoot him for revenge. Despite this, Rolo is still a VICTIM, and therefore, I feel hesitant if he were to get offed from the show just yet.
@ Crusader:
I agree with Tacitus. And I agree that Lelouch is committing destruction and murder in his path to supposed “peace”. However, the question here is: between Lelouch and Britannia, who is the lesser/greater evil? Destruction, murder/casualties of innocents, etc. is inevitable in war, and really, peace is only that temporary period of stasis inbetween wars (since, according to some scholars, war is inevitable, and there will be wars in the future). And Lelouch’s ultimate goal is not peace, it’s freedom from Britannia, since they ARE trying to take over the frickin world here. Lelouch just BELIEVES that peace will come hand in hand with the destruction of Britannia (the ultimate problem and cause of all evil in his POV), but we all know in reality that true peace is nonexistent and a utopia is only a dream. SO unless an individual has the power of GOD and can end wars in a non-evil fashion (at least mankind’s standards of evil), it is impossible to get rid of the gray and black and whatnot that unavoidably comes with human nature and thus, war. And Lelouch does not have the power of God, only the power of the King, so his tactics and decisions will have fault no doubt. But at least he is the lesser evil of the two.
@ Calawain:
Yes, I agree that Rolo is twisted and does many twisted things. However, as I mentioned to QueenJaydes, the boy is still a VICTIM. Shirley was a VICTIM. Even Lelouch is a VICTIM. Heck, even V.V. is … NOT a victim. But almost everyone on this show is a VICTIM. That said, should Rolo necessarily have a BLOODY end?
The way I see it at least under Britannia you know who the ones in charge are, but under Lulu the only major difference is that you have a piece of paper called a constitution of little power. Under Lulu’s new system you get to keep your national name but no nation has control over its own destiny, after all if the Saudis want out of the war it seems the they are not allowed to opt out. Peace will not come once Lulu Balkanizes the world. What he will end up doing is suppressing wayward states and force them to remain in his kind of government where he is the Princeps, the first among equals. However Lulu hasn’t been treating people like equals, but more like tools. With Britannia you get more honesty, under Lulu you get false pride. No much better if you ask me, and let’s not forget that V2 said that Lulu is much like Charles…
@crusader: Lol tell me ur being sarcastic. Cuz the way I see it, this is war and the guy can do whatever he wants if it is to achieve victory. The ends still justify the means in that sense, plus he never claimed the moral high ground anyway. After the war’s over, being the charismatic leader who relies on the people’s support as he is, Lelouch will have to restore equality & sovereignty all over the world (the Japanese won’t have their Sakuradite being stolen by foreigners anymore, and Lelouch’s not so interested in ruling the world in the 1st place). Also, think about it like this: he tricks people into thinking he was treating them nicely, but he’d still do the same things if he weren’t acting at all, so what’s the big deal? Unless he f*cks the world up spectacularly at some point, I continue to have nothing against him.
But what’s so exciting about it all you ask? At least you’ll no longer have a big fat emperor promoting lunatic social darwinism publicly and you know there’s a lot of good fighting to come…
Once the war is over Lulu doesn’t have to do anything…once he is master of the world what is there to stop him from disregarding his promises? He has no moral high ground, and has no moral scruples left, so it is just as likely that power will seduce him just like it has every one else. I don’t think he is fighting for freedom for any one but himself given how he basically pointed a gun at the Saudis so that they would do what he wanted them to do. Sure he can do whatever he wishes, but does that make his war just because he’s spent so many lives for a marginal change in the status quo? Saudi Arabia had their freedom and their national destiny in their hands and theirs alone it was not Britannia that knocked down their doors and forced them to submit to some distant government. Lulu does not have to do anything he does not want to do.
As they say the apple does not fall far from the tree, Charles’ and Lulu share much of the same ruthlessness. Lulu will get big and fat one day given how adverse to exercise he is, so a lunatic old fag or a lunatic emo new fag? Not much difference if you ask me, but we shall see if Lulu can walk away from power absolute. Just because he is a rebel does not make him a decent bloke, if you have read anything about Africa in recent years you would know that rebels are not always decent people. Every dictator is charismatic, they all have to be good orators to get their followers. Lulu is still a politician just because he is young does not mean he can avoid the trappings of his job.
Can Suzaku get on my nerves even more?? Yes. Possibly in the next episode… They should rescue Kallen quickly
Corenlia and Lelouch alliance is what I am counting on… she gets it, but Suzaku is still stuck on blaming only Leoulch for Euphie’s death… Does he know abt V.V?
Calm down there, sailor.
Suzaku may have a different opinion on V.V., mostly due to the context that he met him in. To Cornelia, he’s this random guy handing out demigod powers to destructive maniacs like halloween candy which got her little sister/surrogate daughter destroyed utterly and then killed.
To Suzaku he’s the guy that appeared at the lowest moment of his life, said “There’s this thing called geass..” which let him get a grip on what had just happenned, and then pulled Nunnally out of a warzone slightly after Lelouch pointed some heavy ordinance at her (Geass misfire? Imagine a gun misfire at that point. They do happen.) so he’d fall into a trap trying to keep Lulu from killing her and slightly before Tamaki got a chance to shoot her with the rest of the students so he’d surrender.
I think Suzaku likes V.V. just fine.
@Crusader
I don’t think your idea of Lelouch being a World Dictator is feasible. For one, there are other individuals that match him in intellectual prowess (See: Xing Ke). It would be highly naive to think that Xing Ke is the only man (other than Schneizel) that can match Lelouch intellectually in the world. Lelouch has made it clear that he’s not interested in ruling/governing other countries. Instead, he wants a coalition of independent countries unified to combat Britannia. Once Britannia has been conquered there is no reason for Lelouch to continue on as Zero.
As indicated in earlier episodes, he intends to return to a normal life (which includes Ashford Academy and Nunnally) once his mission is complete.
As for Saudi Arabia, weren’t they part of the EU or Chinese Federation? I don’t think Geass has mentioned many independent countries in the world at all. To my knowledge the world had been carved up between 3 Superpowers: Britannia, EU and the Chinese Federation.
Key word “intended to,” but Shirley is dead and how many more will die? He can’t go back ever again, not after the shit he’s pulled. The official story is that he’s building a coalition, and by suppressing Saudi Arabia with force he is, but this is no coalition of the willing. He wants the power of a King, armed with such power will be so easy for him to go back to being a mere citizen? I think not thus far his cause has changed more than once so it’s not that he is wanting in cause, but he has maintained a thirst for power. Everytime he fights Britannia he believes that he needs more power. That is what he is underneath the facade of building a pure and blue world he’s still a terrorist willing to do any thing to fulfill his goals. At this point Loli-con Li is going to expire long before Lulu and if there is resistance to his new world order there will always be conflict hence Lulu will be fighting to keep what he has gained through the blood of millions. Lulu has magic he cannot lose for very long intelligence means nothing once you have Geass Magic and he’s one of the few left who have it. There are probably people as smart as Lulu but no one has geass like Lulu other than Charles who will die.
The same can be said of any revolutionary neither Lenin, Mao, or Castro went back to being John Q. Public once the fighting was over, I have doubts that Lulu can go back if people find out that he was Zero. Once he leaves then what will become of his band of terrorists? They obviously could not pull together without him so it seems doubtful that Lulu can just pack up and leave after tearing the world to pieces and forcing the more reluctant nation states to go along with his plans. No dictator ever admits to wanting power mind you.
Actions not words will define Lulu’s new order and thus far he’s had quite a massacre on his hands. Shirley and Euphie are dead as the result of his rebellion and C2 did prophecy that he would be alone, and no one is more alone than a dictator.
I see that Suzaku wants attention and he got it!
@Crusader
You never indicated whether Saudi Arabia was already being occupied by one of the other SuperPowers or not. Who’s to say he’s not liberating them with some help from local forces? I think you’re misinterpreting Lelouch’s intentions. He doesn’t want the power OF a king. He wants the power to DESTROY a king, namely the Emperor. If you’ll recall back in Episode 8, he had a very poignant discussion with Suzaku (being fleeing with the 1 Million Zeroes) about what course of action to take when confronting evil. Lelouch blatantly stated that he would become a greater evil in order to topple the current evil. This is no secret. Even way back in Season One, when he revealed his identity to get the support of the former head of the Kaguya family (I forget his name), he willingly chose to walk the path of destruction.
Of course Lelouch has a thirst for power. He openly stated as such in episode one of Season 2. But why does he want that power? To change the current class system that reinforces inequities based on Nationality/Birth (e.g. Britannian vs. Non-Britannian). Lelouch needs more power because the Emperor has something Lelouch also has… a Geass, which puts them on equal footing. Lelouch needs a trump card, an advantage in order to beat his opponent. Currently, with the destruction of the Geass cult they are more evenly matched than before.
Lelouch has magic that comes with a price. If he uses it too much, the Geass will eventually consume him as stated by C.C. on more than one occasion. The Geass is not something Lelouch can use indefinitely without some sort of blowback. It’s a double-edged sword and each time he uses it, it puts him closer to the edge of losing control. And even the Geass has its limits. Firstly, he must directly look someone in the eye to use it, which won’t work if someone’s piloting a KnightFrame or wearing shades (like Mao). Secondly, even if he DOES manage to pull of a Geass on someone, he can never use it on the same person again, afterwards. Thirdly, the Geass isn’t all-powerful, as even Euphemia showed some resistance to it before finally succumbing to its power. Who’s to say there aren’t more people out there that are resistant to Geass? Or even immune like C.C. and V.V. are?
You can’t really blame Shirley’s death on Lelouch. She was practically trying to kill herself mere minutes before she ACTUALLY died. LOL. If anything, that was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Point of fact is, Lelouch can not be a World Dictator and still be with Nunnally. Nunnally is Lelouch’s raison d’etre and without her, he’d be just another Refrain addict. Once Lelouch has secured the world from the threat of the Britannian Empire the only route left to him is to leave the world in the competent hands of people like Toudoh and Kaguya and retire to his normal life beside Nunnally. He can either have the world or have Nunnally but he can’t have both and we’ve seen time and time again that Lelouch is willing to pick Nunnally over victory (Season 1′s final two episodes and episode 6/7 on Season 2).
It’s really a no-contest. Lelouch doesn’t want the responsibility of running the world. He just wants to get back at his father for letting his mother die and make the world safer for Nunnally by eliminating what he sees as a threat to her continued existance(namely the Britannian Empire itself).
@ Crusader:
Tools? The emperor’s flesh and blood children are tools to him. And, equals? The emperor treats no one as his equal with the exception of V.V. (who’s also still a tool to him). And pride? Britannia strips away your identity as a nation and as an individual and gives you a number. I don’t believe Lelouch gives false pride; he’s able to rally allies with the promise of independence and gaining back the pride they had lost upon Britannia’s control. Again, in the realm of politics and war, everyone is a tool. At least in Lelouch’s case, he is the lesser of two evils. And on a lighter note, I guess it takes a Charles to defeat a Charles.
In response to Lelouch’s army forcing Saudi Arabia to choose sides…Schneizel had just taken over half of the E.U. and Britannia is planning to conquer the Chinese Federation through open war or negotiation and threats (before that, Schneizel schemed, with an arrange marriage b/w the first prince and the empress, to have half Chinese Federation territory in exchange for giving the Eunuchs favor with Britannia and the promise of nobility status). Britannia is moving forward with world domination. Lelouch is recruiting a coalition of independent nations to stop and defeat Britannia. It is inevitable that it will be Lelouch’s army vs. Britannia in the end; there are only two sides. Saudi Arabia would get roped in on either side either way. Lelouch did not jeopardize their sovereignty; their sovereignty will be jeopardized if Britannia wins.
In response to Lelouch getting seduced by his power and taking over the world…in a previous episode, he’s realized he wants things to return to normal, to happier times (Student Council and Ashford Academy). Naïve, yes, but that’s what he realizes he now values. Lelouch originally wanted to destroy Britannia for Nunally, because of the Emperor and his Darwinistic theory that the strong should survive and the weak should perish, and since Nunally is considered weak due to her disabilities, Lelouch refuses to live in such a world. His reasons have become less self-centered (solely for the sake of
Nunally) and geared more towards others (Ashford Student Council, Kallen, etc.) as the show progresses. His army consists of a coalition of independent nations who want their sovereignty to remain intact; this is their reason to join up with him since its obviously going to become a war between Britannia vs. everyone else in the end. And with Britannia, you can throw sovereignty out the window. Lelouch can take off Zero’s mask for good once they win the war since there will no more need for him. He won’t be a dictator; he’ll be a hero, and I’m sure people won’t care what he does after the war. They’ll expect him to vanish, I’m sure.
In response to Lelouch so far having a massacre on his hands…Massacre? What Clovis did in episode 1 of season 1, slaughtering that section of Area 11 mercilessly, was massacre. The Geass cult was definitely a dangerous card in the emperor and V.V.’s hands, being used in some manner that could destroy the world (according to that general guy). When Lelouch wiped the Geass cult out, while it was still a massacre of sorts, it definitely lacked the ruthlessness that Clovis’ did.
Lastly, Euphie (intentionally, to a degree) and Shirley (unintentionally) were sacrifices that Lelouch made; these are the kinds of sacrifices that will inevitably lead to this prophesized isolation of Lelouch that you speak of, not because he will become a dictator. Lelouch was aware that there would be sacrifices from the start, but it didn’t really sink in until it actually happened (e.g. losing Euphie). His character, however, has changed since season 1; he was more callous and selfish when all of this had started, but now he’s realized he doesn’t want to lose anyone else he cares about (e.g. Kallen and his adamant declaration of promising to rescue her). He’s realized that it’s not just for Nunally anymore, but for the Black Knights and so forth. He’s finally looking at the bigger picture and now has others’ interests at heart as well. The fact that Lelouch HAS undergone a change of character is something you must take into account.
@ Frankenstein:
You have touched on some good points. Lelouch does claim no moral high ground; he knows what he’ll have to do to be victorious (the sacrifices and such). And the majority of Lelouch’s power does stem from the support of the people (the other portion, through the power of Geass). Britannians gain credibility through using an imperial monarchy (nobility and ranks and such); Lelouch’s credibility comes from giving the defeated a cause and being the leader of that cause. Anything other than that cause and people will not support him, which will lead to his loss of credibility, and therefore, lead to his loss of power.
@ Halcyon:
I agree. Xing Ke is a good example to bring in. He’s only allying himself with Lelouch because it’s in his best interests to do so (for the Chinese Federation and the empress). If Lelouch threatens that, then Xing Ke will no doubt retaliate. And YES, Lelouch has no inclination to rule the world once Britannia is defeated; he wants things to return to normal, to the time when everyone was happy (a.k.a. Student Council and Ashford Academy). This is what he’s realized he wants, as I’ve mentioned to Crusader.
@ Halcyon (continued, since I just saw your post just now):
And good point: there could be a misinterpretation of Lelouch’s intentions concerning Saudi Arabia. But I’ve already mentioned above that whether or not they want to join with Lelouch’s army, choosing a side between Lelouch or Britannia will be inevitable in the end. And I agree that Nunally would not want him to be a world dictator (and Nunally IS priority in his life), so this is one more reason why he will NOT become a world dictator. Lastly, I agree that Lelouch is only striving for a safer world for Nunally because Britannia IS a threat to her existence with all the emperor’s social darwinist crap (as I’ve mentioned above to Crusader) and that he’s not interested in world domination, unlike his father.
And yes, though Lelouch treads on the path of destruction and power, his actions and decisions do not point to him following in the steps of a dictator. So far his power has only been used towards his goal of defeating Britannia, nothing more, nothing less. It’s not corruption or tyranny; it’s strategy.
And I can’t stress enough, though Lelouch has agreed to be the greater evil to achieve victory, between him and his father, he is still the LESSER evil of the two.
@Halcyon
They used the word suppressed and if the locals wanted to join in there would have been no need for Todou to go in to negotiate, he’s a fighter not a diplomat. I have heard the cries for change before a paradise on earth where there will be no poor where every one is equal, and it has always ended tragically. Lulu’s rhetoric beautiful as it may be does not change the fact that his methods are brutal and will continue to be brutal because of necessity of building a utopia. So once big bad Britannia is gone I suppose mankind will all just start loving one another a big huggie bunch?
Lulu kept Rolo alive despite the dangers Lulu was master of Rolo so it was his little weapon that killed Shirley for his sake. Don’t try to crucify the victim, we all know that it was Lulu’s insistence that Rolo be allowed to live that doomed Shirley.
If Toudo and Kaguya were competent they would not be in the position that they were in once Lulu left the field. No one ever intends on becoming a dictator, it just happens they end up there. But in good time we shall see this new world that Lulu wants and we shall see if Nunnally will tolerate his presence after finding out all the things he has done for “her” sake. Lulu has Orange-kun he has infinite geass. We all love the rebel leader, and often we forget that guys like Mugabe were once rebels. Don’t be so foolish to think that people can just walk away from power so easily, historically this has not been the case and the way things are going Lulu had a paradise and he lost it. But we shall see if this new age will be much different from the old.
@Suma Sang
Indeed that if that is the case then we should be allowed to massacre some but not others. For one man ought to be allowed to function as judge jury and executioner…Moreover support for Lulu’s little Saudi adventure is a tacit endorsement of pre-emptive strike, it’s not so easy to call it “just.” Even here if Lulu says that they are a threat it must be true for Lulu cannot lie right?
Ruthlessness tends to make soul dark and have less complaint about other “necessary” deeds that will be taken to ensure utopia. Lulu has changed he’s become accustomed to killing his friends and forgetting about them, not once have we heard anything about a plan for rescuing Kallen…
Lulu is a terrorist he’s labeled his enemies as short sighted and that he knows what is best for them. He is right now the big brother of his little coalition ultimate power rests with him, he does not have to answer to the council of rubber stampers. It will be interesting to see if his men are willing to continue the slaughter once questions are raised we shall see if he can tolerate dissent. If the ends do justify the means then we shall see to what end this will truly amount to. I just don’t see much difference between father and son. Right now his followers seem to be eying one another with suspicion.
I have a theory about the ‘lies’ that V.V has told, one of which could be the death of Lelouch’s mother. Also, V.V is the direct reason why Suzaku hates Lelouch. Although I don’t care much for Charles, since he didn’t do anything to stop the death of Marianne and Euphy. Charles really doesn’t seem to care what his other children do, he seems more focused on Lelouch then on the others.
Suzaku has offically become Britannia’s Lapdog, he’s no longer a Japanese if he would so willingly use such a method just to get what he wants out of a prisoner. Remember the adage, ‘you are what you eat’? Well in Suzaku’s case, you are what you pretend to be mf. Only a Britannia Knight would use that kind of method against a Japanese P.O.W >:( I hope you rot in all nine hells! It’ll serve you right if Kallen’s happy memory is something about her family before Britannia destroyed it!
Lapdog aside, Lelouch seems to have his hands full for the next episode I can’t wait! (Death to SUZAKU THE BRITANNIA LAPDOG!)
@ Crusader:
I was trying to point out that though both instances (Area 11 and Geass cult) could be categorized under massacre, but one was strategic (Geass cult) whereas the other (Area 11) was just ruthless and did not need to happen. However, both Clovis AND Lelouch did commit a BAD thing because massacre is still massacre.
Once Britannia is defeated, those countries under their control can regain their sovereignty and those countries allied with Lelouch can keep their sovereignty, which would’ve been taken away if Britannia turned out victorious. There may not be utopia where mankind is one “loving, huggie bunch”, but it will be a better world than the world that would have been ruled solely under the Britannian Empire. And it’s not that we love the rebel leader solely for being the rebel leader; he is preferred because the current leader has become one bad guy (hence, the reason for a rebel leader in the first place), and the rebel leader is the better alternative. Viewers are not blinded by Lelouch’s actions; we just prefer him to the emperor, who is the greater evil.
With Saudi Arabia, whether it was by force or not, being on one side or the other is INEVITABLE. You can’t be caught up in the one nation that is appearing questionable right now (of whether or not Lelouch bullied it into joining his army) since all of his other allies joined willingly. Falcyon made a good point that there could be a misinterpretation of Lelouch’s intentions concerning this. Apart from the questionable circumstance, Saudi Arabia is only one factor of many in the whole scheme of things.
And Lelouch has undergone a change of character (for the better) whether you want to see it or not. He’s grown; his circle of concern has moved from Nunally to the Student Council to the Black Knights, etc. You claim he’s ruthless and has become accustomed to killing off his friends and forgetting about them…Then why did he try to save Suzaku so many dang times in season 1 at the cost of revealing himself and jeopardizing the rebellion? Why did he give orders to the Black Knights to not harm the students at Ashford Academy, especially the Student Council, at the end of Season 1? Because he does FRICKIN care about his past and present friends. To me, Euphemia is the only person who he deeply cared about that he intentionally sacrificed (because he thought he had no choice). Other than that, he is not the heartless fiend you are making him out to be.
Lastly, I do agree that Lelouch is in a sticky situation due to committing a moral “no-no”, and that loyalties on both sides have been tested, as Calawain pointed out. But Lelouch did have had a purpose for this slaughter: to eliminate a threat (and the source of sin, as he put it) as well as in honor of Shirley. He has not committed a slaughter like this (where unarmed people were the casualties) up until this point, which has left his men feeling their loyalty waver (aside from the incident where he abandoned them in season 1’s last episode). He has not been ruthless in this manner until now, and even so, it was still a strategic move and not meaningless. You are painting Lelouch in too harsh of a light; there IS a difference between father and son.
You forget that not all villains in life are one dimensional card board cut outs of evil. True Lulu may be compassionate to his Ashford buddies and Black Knight Cronies and severe to his enemies, but that does not change the fact that his actions are deemed necessary by him and him alone. If his men could be trusted then why lie?
Lulu’s character reminds me of one Reinhard Heydrich, You see Heydrich was a handsome man, womanizer, and a loving father. He was loyal to his friends and severe to his enemies. Nevertheless these qualities do not excuse him for the crimes he committed. So while you give Lulu a free pass for wanton slaughter just remember that not every criminal is a pile of malice. Like Lulu he did foster a fanatical streak in his men such that when he was assassinated Lidice was wiped off the map and all males over 16 were shot. You say there is a difference between father and son, I agree in the end the body count for their pure and blue worlds will probably differ by 10 or so dead, but as you as a difference nonetheless.
@Crusader
They used the word suppressed and if the locals wanted to join in there would have been no need for Todou to go in to negotiate, he’s a fighter not a diplomat.
Who’s to say who the Black Knights were suppressing? It could be Britannian/EU/Chinese Federation holdout-forces they were suppressing. There’s not enough information given in that small briefing to make a definitive determination on the status of Saudi Arabia. At best, all we can do is guess what their political status was prior to the Black Knights becoming involved.
I have heard the cries for change before a paradise on earth where there will be no poor where every one is equal, and it has always ended tragically. Lulu’s rhetoric beautiful as it may be does not change the fact that his methods are brutal and will continue to be brutal because of necessity of building a utopia. So once big bad Britannia is gone I suppose mankind will all just start loving one another a big huggie bunch?
Lelouch’s methods are brutal because his enemy is equally as brutal. Hence, the entire speech he made by becoming a greater evil. This has already been acknowledge. Lelouch’s goal is not a perfect utopia. His goal is a safer world for Nunnally and that begins (and ends) with the destruction of Britannia as he has said many times in Season One.
Lulu kept Rolo alive despite the dangers Lulu was master of Rolo so it was his little weapon that killed Shirley for his sake. Don’t try to crucify the victim, we all know that it was Lulu’s insistence that Rolo be allowed to live that doomed Shirley.
There was no way that Lelouch could’ve predicted that Rolo would’ve killed Shirley. Up until the arrival of Jeremiah Gottwield, Shirley led a safe and normal life. It was the fact that Orange-kun used his Geass Canceller on her which led her to becoming confused and conflicted and ultimately led to her demise. Rolo was kept alive because like Lelouch, Rolo has a Geass which is a useful ability. He also gained a lot of information about the Geass Cult through Rolo. It has been said since he acquired Rolo as a resource that he planned on disposing of him as soon as he was done with him.
It was Shirley’s insistence on jumping into a battle zone that got her killed. You can’t walk into a mine field and then blame the mine for killing you. She knew what they dangers were. She was aware that he was Zero at that time and that he was in danger. She was fully aware of the associated risks of being around area. Despite the fact that Suzaku was already on the scene and police and firefighters had become involved, Shirley wanted to be Wonder Woman and help Lelouch despite the fact that she has no skills or combat ability. She made a conscious decision to AID A KNOWN TERRORIST and bore the consequence of that decision.
If Toudo and Kaguya were competent they would not be in the position that they were in once Lulu left the field.
Did you forget that Toudoh ranked highest on Lelouch’s chart? Or that Kaguya’s intelligence meter was maxed out? I think Lelouch’s own rankings indicate how competent he believes they are. How he utilizes his resources prior to “World Domination” is part of a strategy. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t think they’re not competent enough to take on Leadership roles, it just means he has more immediate uses for them that can further his goals a lot better.
No one ever intends on becoming a dictator, it just happens they end up there. But in good time we shall see this new world that Lulu wants and we shall see if Nunnally will tolerate his presence after finding out all the things he has done for “her” sake. Lulu has Orange-kun he has infinite geass.
As for infinite Geass, you’re assuming that Orange-kun will survive until the end of the conflict. Now that V.V. knows he’s defected, Orange-kun will be just as much a target of Britannia as Lelouch. I don’t think V.V. would’ve let Orange-kun get rebuilt and run wild on Area 11 without some form of failsafe. And remember, Lelouch’s new world begins with the destruction of Britannia. As for tolerating Lelouch’s presence, lol, he can always Geass her into forgetting about his crimes, like he did with Shirley in Season 1. Problem Solved.
We all love the rebel leader, and often we forget that guys like Mugabe were once rebels. Don’t be so foolish to think that people can just walk away from power so easily, historically this has not been the case and the way things are going Lulu had a paradise and he lost it. But we shall see if this new age will be much different from the old.
Lelouch is not Mugabe. Mugabe would’ve never run away from a battlefield to help his family. Nor would he consider disbanding his rebel forces and giving up because his family defected to the other side.
You have to keep things in perspective. Code Geass, as a world, already has set rules on what the characters will and will not do. It has already become very clear that Lelouch is willing to do anything for Nunnally, including discarding the Black Knights and his designs on World Domination. This is what makes Lelouch fundamentally different from any dictator in history.
I fear this episode is a mere glimps of the stupidity to come. Politics-wise.
The thing that bothered me the the most, apart from the wholesale slaughter, was the fact that apparently Lulu’s union of nations is getting along nicely. I assume the free world responded with a “Uniting against Brittania, why didn’t we think of that!” when they first heard of this masked man’s brilliant plan to get rid of that pesky conquering empire.
I assume the Chinese nations (federation, empire, cult harbouring idiots, what ever they are supposed to be) had a troubled relation with the Euro Universe to begin with and as such those nations had no intention to unite against Brittania in the past, because they also distrusted each other. But here comes some masked loon and suddenly years of mistrust melt away as butter on a hot iron plate.
I thought the Euro Universe was united to begin with. I thought they had been properly waging war against Brittania for years and years. True, they weren’t doing a very good job at it, but that doesn’t really matter. Here comes Zero, asking for the allegiance of the world for his (yet to be revealed, but assuredly) mad scheme, effective asking the rest of the world to forget the blood, sweat and tears they shed throughout the years in their struggle against their longtime foe and go along with whatever he proposes.
The shows new motto: “If your achievements are not Japanese, they aren’t worth shit!”
Why am I not suprised.
@liathgirl
…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
(snort)
Ok, that cheered me up. I’ll warn you, “Suzaku Kururugi is a Son of Japan”….
(At this point could probably make a case for calling himself “The LAST Son of Japan”…)
@Halycon
So let’s brush aside the Saudi’s and declare it a fully justified intervention because it was declared as such by Lulu. That’s the thing you take Lulu’s version at face value. So he wants to build a safer world for Nunnally I think she is pretty safe now given how fratricide is something only Lulu has done, we don’t even know who killed Marianne it might have be C2 all along. Moreover the longer the war continues the greater danger Nunnally will be in, this is after all a war and accidents will happen, with the Empire gone rank offers no protection and once the rebellion is victorious what is to prevent a Carthaginian peace? That is what Lulu wants with the complete dismantlement of the other side. She is still a royal and still culpable for having retainers like Suzaku…
Sure Lulu’s power rankings woopee! Considering how fast the Black Rebellion collapsed I can’t say much for Todou the general given how top brass leaving a command post is militarily stupid these days but okay I guess Col. Todou could end up a Pinochet in a pinch. I have suspicions about putting a military officer in charge of a nation, I trust that you know as well as I do how such situations are rarely if ever for the best. Pleasant as having a loli-overlord may sound I think that was more of a joke than a serious endorsement of having children in charge of nations. It has not worked out so far…though feel free to cite a successful child Emperor/Empress.
Fair enough blame Shirley if you must but in the end Lulu did get her involved since last season. That mudslide he called forth was the event that started it all. I Don’t recall Shirley starting that one.
I do not think we can agree on the nature of Lulu if by your argument that his love for Nunnally is the thing that vindicates everything then so be it. I on the other hand have an aversion to idealists who are bent on achieving utopia by force, in my experience they embody the very worst kind of violence, because they feel justified in doing so. With professionals it is just necessary and business for them the goal becomes so inviolable that the cost is never too high.
Also good luck trying to geass a blind girl…not sure how Lulu could pull it off but considering the amount of bullshit that has passed for tactics it wouldn’t surprise me if by series end Lulu can cure blindness, three kinds of leprosy, walk on water, and feed a starving nation with a loaf of bread.
It is true no dictator ever proved that he was a sis-con. That is something unique about Lulu, the rest of them had more mundane fetishes.
So let’s brush aside the Saudi’s and declare it a fully justified intervention because it was declared as such by Lulu. That’s the thing you take Lulu’s version at face value.
LOL. I don’t take anything at face value. What I’m saying is, we don’t know the situation of Saudi Arabia prior to Lelouch’s intervention. Speculating on what it was is rather pointless. I take a guarded position of healthy skepticism.
Here’s the info we have before us. Britannia, the EU and the Chinese Federation compose most of the world’s nations. There is very little information provided about any independent states, other than Japan which was subjugated and became a part of Britannia.
So he wants to build a safer world for Nunnally I think she is pretty safe now given how fratricide is something only Lulu has done,
Why did he commit fratricide? He killed Clovis because Clovis was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the ghettos. He killed Euphemia because Euphemia was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the stadium.
Sounds to me if he didn’t commit fratricide there’d be tons more Japanese casualties.
Moreover the longer the war continues the greater danger Nunnally will be in,
You assume it’s going to be a long, bloody war of attrition. It won’t be. There are only 26 episodes of Geass. We’re already past the halfway point. The spoilers for the next episode indicate it won’t involve any conflict (at least on Earth) so that knocks down another Episode and we’re left at 10 episodes before the climax. Within these 10 episodes, they have major major plot holes, character arcs and character introductions (there are still at least 2 Knights of Rounds that haven’t made their debut within the series).
Given the limited time frame with which to conclude the series and the amount of work left to be done, we can assume that his “war” will be over with the death of Charles vi Britannia and V.V.
As for what can/will offer protection AFTER the war is over, let’s not forget that Nunnally is a blind, crippled girl who is trying to give the Japanese their sense of identity back. THIS, coupled with the fact that Kallen knows/likes her very well, is sure to almost guarantee that the Order of the Black Knights will fill in the vaccuum left behind by the Knights of the Round/Britannia.
Considering how fast the Black Rebellion collapsed I can’t say much for Todou the general given how top brass leaving a command post is militarily stupid these days but okay I guess Col. Todou could end up a Pinochet in a pinch.
Toudoh is a combat specialist, not a tactician. They were all looking to Lelouch to give them direction during the final battle of Season One. Let’s not forget ALSO that Toudoh is the ONLY MAN IN HISTORY to win a battle against Britiannia WITHOUT A SINGLE KnightMare frame. If that doesn’t give you an indication of his competency, IDK what will.
I have suspicions about putting a military officer in charge of a nation, I trust that you know as well as I do how such situations are rarely if ever for the best.
I, personally, don’t see Toudoh being a head of state but he does possess the leadership qualities and intelligence to become one. Being the “Miracle” Toudoh, it isn’t a far-fetched idea to imagine Toudoh having full support of the public based on his legendary hero status.
Pleasant as having a loli-overlord may sound I think that was more of a joke than a serious endorsement of having children in charge of nations. It has not worked out so far…though feel free to cite a successful child Emperor/Empress.
The Empress of China doesnt have the intelligence or resolution that Kaguya has. The two are very dissimilar. The only thing they share in common is age, not aptitude.
Fair enough blame Shirley if you must but in the end Lulu did get her involved since last season. That mudslide he called forth was the event that started it all. I Don’t recall Shirley starting that one.
Lelouch didn’t start the mudslide, Kallen did with her Gurren’s reaction weapon. Ultimately, the mudslide was to stop the Britannian forces at Narita. Lelouch had no way of knowing that Shirley’s father would end up at Narita or that the mudslide would kill him. Shirley’s father was a classic case of being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. As for involving Shirley, I believe Lelouch sought to rectify that error by Geassing her to forget about him. AND LET’S NOT FORGET, Shirley forgave Lelouch for her father’s death in the end!!! If anything, it was V.V. who involved Shirley in Season 2 by sending Jeremiah Gottweld to cancel the Geass’ in Ashford Academy (which included the Emperor’s Geass) and assassinate Lelouch (eventhough V.V. didn’t know that Lelouch became Zero again).
I do not think we can agree on the nature of Lulu if by your argument that his love for Nunnally is the thing that vindicates everything then so be it.
I don’t think Lelouch’s love for Nunnally vindicates his actions. What I’m saying is that the basis for his actions are Nunnally’s safety. If Nunnally’s safety is threatened he would abandon his quest for World Domination easily. That doesn’t vindicate his actions or methodology but that also doesn’t make him the mad power-hungry despot that you may imagine him to be.
What separates him from other dictators is his willingness to throw away his position of authority for the love of another at the drop of a hat, as illustrated by leaving in the midst of a battle he could’ve won to rush to Nunnally’s rescue.
He’s not your garden-variety megalomaniac by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that everything he does is for the love of his sister makes him a more sympathetic protagonist, as opposed to someone seeking power solely to satisfy their own ambition.
I on the other hand have an aversion to idealists who are bent on achieving utopia by force, in my experience they embody the very worst kind of violence, because they feel justified in doing so. With professionals it is just necessary and business for them the goal becomes so inviolable that the cost is never too high.
Human beings are by nature a very fractious species that will largely only cooperate when their self-interests converge (See: The US’ late involvement in WWII for an example).
Also good luck trying to geass a blind girl
Nunnally isn’t medically blind. The attack on the mansion didn’t injure her eyes. What keeps her from seeing is the psychological trauma of the attack. Her eyes work perfectly fine she’s just got a mental block that won’t allow her to open them and see. Other than the fact that she keeps her eyes closed, she’s perfectly susceptible to being Geass’d like everyone else.
@Halcyon,
A lot of things you say are interesting, but some of them are plain flat out wrong:
Why did he commit fratricide? He killed Clovis because Clovis was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the ghettos. He killed Euphemia because Euphemia was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the stadium.
Lelouch did not kill Clovis because he was murdering the Japanese. At this point in the story, Lelouch did not care about the Japanese. If you rewatch Ep 3, during Lelouch’s confrontation with Clovis, at no point did he condemn Clovis for massacring the Japanese. He only brought up his family issues. He killed Clovis out of his own revenge against the royal family. Remember, he had been a Britannian citizen all this time, why would he suddenly start caring about the Japanese? He had only been in charge of a rebel group for a short time.
Similarly, he did not kill Euphemia because he had to. Euphemia could have easily been rescued by Suzaku or someone else and taken away for safety, which would have ended any further bloodshed against the Japanese. He killed Euphemia because it would play into his plot of pinpointing the Britannia as blood thirsty bastards who would do anything to get rid of the Japanese. Perhaps people have a short memory but near the end of episode 21, Lelouch clearly displayed anger towards Euphemia for interfering with his plans, to the point where he was considering her an enemy. If anything, while geassing her might have been an accident, “dealing” with her was in Lelouch’s plans all along. He was NOT ready to accept a truce between Britannia and Japan, and the Euphemia incident was his way of stopping that truce.
Sounds to me if he didn’t commit fratricide there’d be tons more Japanese casualties.
If he hadn’t geassed Euphemia, there wouldn’t have been any further Japanese casualties, period. If he hadn’t gotten angry at Euphemia for her plan to reconcile the Japanese and Britannians, he wouldn’t have confronted her and ended up geassing her on accident. Seriously, do you people forget that Lelouch is in fact, responsible for all these deaths? Euphemia is completely innocent.
As for what can/will offer protection AFTER the war is over, let’s not forget that Nunnally is a blind, crippled girl who is trying to give the Japanese their sense of identity back. THIS, coupled with the fact that Kallen knows/likes her very well, is sure to almost guarantee that the Order of the Black Knights will fill in the vaccuum left behind by the Knights of the Round/Britannia.
Do you seriously believe that the Order of the Black Knights will vanquish the Britannian royalty in the end? I have a hard time believing that the show would introduce all of these sympathetic Britannian characters (Cornelia, Lloyd, Cecile, Gino, Anya, Viletta, the entire Ashford Academy, etc.) only to kill them off because they were on the bad guy’s side.
Toudoh is a combat specialist, not a tactician. They were all looking to Lelouch to give them direction during the final battle of Season One. Let’s not forget ALSO that Toudoh is the ONLY MAN IN HISTORY to win a battle against Britiannia WITHOUT A SINGLE KnightMare frame. If that doesn’t give you an indication of his competency, IDK what will.
So if Toudoh is that competent, he should also be one of the first to uncover Lelouch’s true nature. Imagine how Toudoh will react when he finds out it was Lelouch will killed off the JLF!
Lelouch didn’t start the mudslide, Kallen did with her Gurren’s reaction weapon.
But since it was part of Lelouch’s plans, the responsibility for the mudslide would fall to Lelouch. Hitler probably didn’t kill anyone but the deaths of millions are still on his hands because it was his orders.
What separates him from other dictators is his willingness to throw away his position of authority for the love of another at the drop of a hat, as illustrated by leaving in the midst of a battle he could’ve won to rush to Nunnally’s rescue.
This does make one more sympathetic to Lelouch’s cause. However it does give you some pause. To this day I still do not believe Lelouch really cares about creating a new country. His true goal has always been to avenge his mother’s death and his hatred only extends to the Britannian royal family, not to normal Britannians. He doesn’t care about the Japanese and is only using them as a chess piece. He has of course, over time gotten attached to his loyal men and friends, especially in season 2, but I don’t believe his goals have changed. He HAS demonstrated that if the conditions were correct, he would not mind Britannia still being in charge (see what happened when Nunally became governor).
He’s not your garden-variety megalomaniac by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that everything he does is for the love of his sister makes him a more sympathetic protagonist, as opposed to someone seeking power solely to satisfy their own ambition.
But he is still evil, you shouldn’t take that away from him. And quite frankly, I love the fact that he is evil. That makes him a much more interesting character than your typical cookiecutter hero whose every action is justified. And really, it annoys me more than anything else when Lelouch fanboys try to morally justify everything Lelouch does. Stop it.
@Goob
Lelouch did not kill Clovis because he was murdering the Japanese. At this point in the story, Lelouch did not care about the Japanese. If you rewatch Ep 3, during Lelouch’s confrontation with Clovis, at no point did he condemn Clovis for massacring the Japanese. He only brought up his family issues. He killed Clovis out of his own revenge against the royal family. Remember, he had been a Britannian citizen all this time, why would he suddenly start caring about the Japanese? He had only been in charge of a rebel group for a short time.
To say that Lelouch has never cared about the Japanese plight prior to obtaining his Geass is patently false. Without his Geass, in the very first episode of Season Two, he is shown sympathizing with Kallen being treated like a dog because of her nationality. Now, it may not have been his primary motivation in murdering Clovis but it cannot be discounted as a factor either. The fact of the matter is, with his Geass, Lelouch could’ve murdered Clovis at any time, if all he was interested in was killing him for revenge. He chose to act only when Clovis started killing Japanese in the ghetto.
Similarly, he did not kill Euphemia because he had to. Euphemia could have easily been rescued by Suzaku or someone else and taken away for safety, which would have ended any further bloodshed against the Japanese.
This is just plain wrong. Suzaku tried to rescue Euphemia and Euphemia shot at him for being Japanese. None of the other Britannians were interested in “rescuing” Euphemia. They were more interested in following her orders to wipe out the Japanese. It was shown, afterwards, that Lelouch had genuinely loved Euphemia and had tried to stop her, pleading with her to end her massacre BEFORE he actually killed her.
Point of fact is, the only person who could’ve stopped Euphemia in that situation was Lelouch. Euphemia was armed with an automatic weapon and was repeatedly firing on men, women and children indiscriminately. Lelouch tried talking her out of it before he pulled the trigger. Given the fact that she was under the spell of the Geass at the time, she would’ve continued killing all the Japanese until there were none left, and that includes Suzaku.
He was NOT ready to accept a truce between Britannia and Japan, and the Euphemia incident was his way of stopping that truce.
Also, patently false, as he had already agreed to a truce with Euphemia before his Geass went out of control.
If he hadn’t geassed Euphemia, there wouldn’t have been any further Japanese casualties, period.
His Geass went out of control. He didn’t Geass her purposefully.
If he hadn’t gotten angry at Euphemia for her plan to reconcile the Japanese and Britannians, he wouldn’t have confronted her and ended up geassing her on accident.
Are you serious? Euphemia wanted Lelouch to be part of the Special Administrative Zone. She had a suspicion that Lelouch was Zero all along since the hotel incident and even stated so during their meeting. She wanted to meet with Lelouch to discuss the possibility of coexistance. He didn’t meet her because he was angry at her. He met her to find out what her intentions were and to see if she was genuine in her desire for coexistence and equality between Japanese and Britannian people.
Seriously, do you people forget that Lelouch is in fact, responsible for all these deaths? Euphemia is completely innocent.
Lelouch is only -personally- responsible for 2 deaths. The rest were casualties of war. It’s not like he’s out there with a gun, deliberately committing murder.
Do you seriously believe that the Order of the Black Knights will vanquish the Britannian royalty in the end? I have a hard time believing that the show would introduce all of these sympathetic Britannian characters (Cornelia, Lloyd, Cecile, Gino, Anya, Viletta, the entire Ashford Academy, etc.) only to kill them off because they were on the bad guy’s side.
You mean the same way the show would introduce Euphemia and Shirley only to kill them off because they were on the Britannian side? LOLZ. If Sunrise has shown us anything it’s that any character can be killed, at any time, with the possible exception of the 3 main characters: Lelouch, Suzaku and C.C.
90% of the characters on that show are expendable.
So if Toudoh is that competent, he should also be one of the first to uncover Lelouch’s true nature. Imagine how Toudoh will react when he finds out it was Lelouch will killed off the JLF!
Toudoh is also a combat veteran and understands the nature of war. I doubt Toudoh would be crying tears over the loss of the JLF. Ever since the hotel hijacking, involving innocent civilians, he didn’t seem too concerned with their fate.
But since it was part of Lelouch’s plans, the responsibility for the mudslide would fall to Lelouch. Hitler probably didn’t kill anyone but the deaths of millions are still on his hands because it was his orders.
The difference is, Hitler specifically selected civilians and rounded them up to be executed. Lelouch has not targetted anyone that didn’t have specific strategic military value.
This is a War and for all intents and purposes, Lelouch has been following the basic principles of keeping civilian involvement to a minimum.
But he is still evil, you shouldn’t take that away from him. And quite frankly, I love the fact that he is evil. That makes him a much more interesting character than your typical cookiecutter hero whose every action is justified. And really, it annoys me more than anything else when Lelouch fanboys try to morally justify everything Lelouch does. Stop it.
Winston Churchill let thousands of people die at Coventry to protect a secret, does that make him evil?
Lelouch, himself, is not a bad or evil person. He mourns for the deaths of others, tries to save his comrades and keep them from harm’s way. That being said, he will not hesitate to USE evil methods to achieve his goals. But it’s not like he’s a completely heartless badass who’s willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals.
If that was the case, he would’ve used Nunnally as another chess piece to further his ambitions, which he has not.
While Lelouch is the protagonist of the story, he’s not squeaky clean either. I personally enjoy his complex plans and methodolgy but to paint Lelouch as one absolute (evil) or another (victim) is just completely fallacious. He’s a multilayered anti-hero type of protagonist, which is what makes him interesting. Using evil to achieve a greater good!
Another thing I want to add on the fratricide issue: Lelouch spent almost all of Season 1 hunting Cornelia. There is pretty much no doubt that he was going to kill her in the end but he did not get the opportunity to do so. And that is one death that cannot be justified whatsoever, especially after knowing that Cornelia is completely innocent of Marianne’s murder.
To say that Lelouch has never cared about the Japanese plight prior to obtaining his Geass is patently false. Without his Geass, in the very first episode of Season Two, he is shown sympathizing with Kallen being treated like a dog because of her nationality.
Right, and that is in Season Two. Obviously he changed over time, but at the beginning, he did not care that much.
Now, it may not have been his primary motivation in murdering Clovis but it cannot be discounted as a factor either. The fact of the matter is, with his Geass, Lelouch could’ve murdered Clovis at any time, if all he was interested in was killing him for revenge. He chose to act only when Clovis started killing Japanese in the ghetto.
I’d rather see it as that was the best opportunity he had to do it. You are just assuming that it factored into his execution of Clovis. And you certainly made it sound like it was his primary motivation in the previous post.
This is just plain wrong. Suzaku tried to rescue Euphemia and Euphemia shot at him for being Japanese. None of the other Britannians were interested in “rescuing” Euphemia. They were more interested in following her orders to wipe out the Japanese. It was shown, afterwards, that Lelouch had genuinely loved Euphemia and had tried to stop her, pleading with her to end her massacre BEFORE he actually killed her.
That still doesn’t justify him killing Euphemia. At some point Euphemia would have stopped (did you conveniently forget when she got out of her geass in the hospital bed?)
Point of fact is, the only person who could’ve stopped Euphemia in that situation was Lelouch. Euphemia was armed with an automatic weapon and was repeatedly firing on men, women and children indiscriminately. Lelouch tried talking her out of it before he pulled the trigger. Given the fact that she was under the spell of the Geass at the time, she would’ve continued killing all the Japanese until there were none left, and that includes Suzaku.
See above.
Also, patently false, as he had already agreed to a truce with Euphemia before his Geass went out of control.
That is what he said to her face. But as we all know, what Lelouch says and what he really thinks are not the same.
Lelouch is only -personally- responsible for 2 deaths. The rest were casualties of war. It’s not like he’s out there with a gun, deliberately committing murder.
Though not -personally- responsible, he is still responsible for what happened. To question that is pretty much blindly accepting every single action he commits.
You mean the same way the show would introduce Euphemia and Shirley only to kill them off because they were on the Britannian side? LOLZ. If Sunrise has shown us anything it’s that any character can be killed, at any time, with the possible exception of the 3 main characters: Lelouch, Suzaku and C.C.
Yes, but to be completely one-sided and wipe out another side would be downright insulting to fans (other than yourself apparently).
Toudoh is also a combat veteran and understands the nature of war. I doubt Toudoh would be crying tears over the loss of the JLF. Ever since the hotel hijacking, involving innocent civilians, he didn’t seem too concerned with their fate.
He wouldn’t cry, but he’d also realize what kind of a person Lelouch is. Also, the hotel hijacking was done by a rogue commander, not by the JLF leadership.
The difference is, Hitler specifically selected civilians and rounded them up to be executed. Lelouch has not targetted anyone that didn’t have specific strategic military value.
And you missed my point completely. You tried to shift the blame of the mudslide to Kallen, when in fact it would be something caused by Lelouch.
Winston Churchill let thousands of people die at Coventry to protect a secret, does that make him evil?
So now you’re comparing Lelouch to Winston Churchill? LOL.
Lelouch, himself, is not a bad or evil person. He mourns for the deaths of others, tries to save his comrades and keep them from harm’s way. That being said, he will not hesitate to USE evil methods to achieve his goals. But it’s not like he’s a completely heartless badass who’s willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals.
Actually, he IS willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals. The only reason he hasn’t used Nunnally yet is because she IS his goal. It would be counterproductive to use her for anything when he is doing all of this fighting purely for her sake.
That he would use evil methods makes him an evil person. He is still obviously the protagonist, the “good guy”, the hero, but that does not change his basic nature. And like I said, it really takes away from Lelouch’s character when people like you try to morally justify every evil act he commits.
Another thing I want to add on the fratricide issue: Lelouch spent almost all of Season 1 hunting Cornelia. There is pretty much no doubt that he was going to kill her in the end but he did not get the opportunity to do so. And that is one death that cannot be justified whatsoever, especially after knowing that Cornelia is completely innocent of Marianne’s murder.
There’s no evidence to suggest that he would’ve killed Cornelia. If he wanted to do it, she was already down and out. He could’ve blasted her with his hadron cannons or shot. You can’t blame him for something he didn’t ACTUALLY do.
Right, and that is in Season Two. Obviously he changed over time, but at the beginning, he did not care that much.
How did he “change over time” if his entire memories were rewritten from Season 1 to Season 2? If anything, the only thing he “changed” from, was from being a Britannian Prince to a commoner. He still had the same personality as he did, before he became Zero. LOL.
I’d rather see it as that was the best opportunity he had to do it. You are just assuming that it factored into his execution of Clovis. And you certainly made it sound like it was his primary motivation in the previous post.
Best opportunity to? LOL. With the Geass at his command he could’ve killed Clovis any time he wanted and made it look like suicide. Or he could’ve Geass’d one of the people close to Clovis and had him taken out. I’m saying Lelouch had justification to kill Clove AND Euphemia, NOT that he was motivated out of pure benevolence but he certainly had a moral cause to kill them, regardless.
That still doesn’t justify him killing Euphemia. At some point Euphemia would have stopped (did you conveniently forget when she got out of her geass in the hospital bed?)
Eupehmia’s Geass stopped because she was dying LOL. It was STILL shown to be active when she was in her hospital bed. She was just physically unable to carry out the order she was given under the Geass.
That is what he said to her face. But as we all know, what Lelouch says and what he really thinks are not the same.
Why would he lie to her? At that point, she already knew he was Zero and what he had done and what he was fully capable of. LOL. Euphemia had honestly wanted Zero to participate in the Special Administrative Zone as an equal and Lelouch having a soft spot for Euphemia thought that this would be the BEST WAY to ensure Nunnally’s safety, which is why he agreed to it at the meeting.
Though not -personally- responsible, he is still responsible for what happened. To question that is pretty much blindly accepting every single action he commits.
In War, there are casualties!!
Yes, but to be completely one-sided and wipe out another side would be downright insulting to fans (other than yourself apparently).
It’s not one sided, half of Toudoh’s “Four Swords” were killed in Season Two along with some of his collaboraters who were executed for treason and before the story is over there’s bound to be more deaths on both sides. As both sides have ample amount of side characters that can be done without. I can think of Asahina, the entire bridge crew of the Black Knight’s flagship, that annoying little turd that keeps following Zero around trying to get a specific title (I forget his name) and Ougi.
All irrelevant characters to the story who could be killed without impacting the BK too much.
He wouldn’t cry, but he’d also realize what kind of a person Lelouch is. Also, the hotel hijacking was done by a rogue commander, not by the JLF leadership.
I think what Toudoh realizes is that without Zero they can’t achieve their goals. As much as he may dislike his methods, he doesn’t question Zero’s results. That has already been explicitly established.
And you missed my point completely. You tried to shift the blame of the mudslide to Kallen, when in fact it would be something caused by Lelouch.
The point is Lelouch hasn’t intentionally killed or targetted any civilians, so your “Hitler” comparison is moot. Hitler’s entire power base was centered around oppressing and systematically punishing one group of people. Lelouch’s power base is centered around liberating the Japanese from Britannian oppression, which is why he’s viewed as a Savior by many of the Japanese.
So now you’re comparing Lelouch to Winston Churchill? LOL.
Well, you did compare Lelouch to Hitler… It’s only fair, after all.
Actually, he IS willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals. The only reason he hasn’t used Nunnally yet is because she IS his goal. It would be counterproductive to use her for anything when he is doing all of this fighting purely for her sake.
There are limits to what Lelouch is willing to do and what he’s willing to sacrifice to obtain his goals.
That he would use evil methods makes him an evil person. He is still obviously the protagonist, the “good guy”, the hero, but that does not change his basic nature. And like I said, it really takes away from Lelouch’s character when people like you try to morally justify every evil act he commits.
Look up the definition of anti-hero. Lelouch is neither hero nor villain, he falls somewhere inbetween. “Evil” characters don’t pursue altruistic goals, it runs antithetical to their character.
I’m not “morally justifying” what Lelouch is doing. I’m correcting misperceptions people have about his character because Lelouch is being compared to “real world” examples, which is completely out of context of the world he exists in.
^_^
I couldn’t help but follow this argument. To sum up my opinion briefly, I think Goob and Crusader have been painting Lelouch in a harsher light than he actually deserves; you highlight the BAD actions he’s taken to an extent of villainy that makes him appear so one-sided. You ignore his complexities as both hero and villain when you do this. Halcyon has made a good point in saying that Lelouch is “a multilayered anti-hero type of protagonist”. Lastly, if you must compare Lelouch with others, stick to the context of the world he exists in (forget Hitler, or even Churchill); compared with his father, Lelouch’s ultimate enemy, who is the greater evil? I only keep bringing this up because I believe it is the most substantial comparison to be made. And for the record, LELOUCH IS THE LESSER EVIL.
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