Macross Frontier 24: Battle Galaxy sighted prepare for and EPIC END!

116 Comments

1. bakaneko
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

   BTW, does anyone here actually think the Vajra are evil? And that the cause of all Frontier’s sorrow is due to Vajra? And that their total annihilation is their only penance?

   Are you all forgetting who the real culprit is, where the real evil lies? She’s one of us. And the place is a certain research fleet.

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2. Crusader
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

   @Halcyon
   Look your gender bias is in my view flawed, it’s more about attitude, Shinji and Ranka had a job to do, and they elected not to do it. To say that Alto-hime is a Shinji is wildly off the mark since one has the guts and resolve to fight while the other cowered in fear while wanking off on his comatose comrade.

   Lastly your endorsement of cowardice is appalling and offensive. It is never justified for a soldier to desert his comrades when a battle is “lost” he fights a rear guard action, he does not have license to save his own ass. The kind of cowardice Ozma showed, which you endorse is the kind that gets units encircled and annihilated. If you fight it is a tactical retreat, if you run your risk every one else’s ass to annihilation because you helped contribute to the rout.

   Alto-hime got his promotion to 2LT well before Ozma deserted. I suggest you look at that scene again, when Ozma let off a salvo at Luca, weapons do only one thing kill. You cannot deliberately disable an enemy that is moving and trying to evade, it does not happen in the Macross universe often and only Max was able to do it and only after Milia told him exactly where to shoot. The chances of hitting the right spot without killing you opponent is nigh impossible if you think such superb flying is possible then you knowledge of fighters is most lacking. Luca’s evasion technique could not have been taken into account and missiles are incapable of discriminating between an engine block and a fuel tank.

   This fallacy you subscribe to about accurate fire is a myth shooting at a moving target is hard enough as it is, and if you shoot you sure as hell are aiming to kill and not maim, Ozma is no sniper and you cannot snipe with auto tracking missiles.

   Even after the Vajra attack NUNS still boasts a huge fleet or was the one we saw when general Perry gave his speech a mere illusion? Alto-hime was reassigned as a flight leader to two novices who probably held 2LT rank as every pilot in the modern world holds such a rank for the most part, and as such with greater responsibility comes greater rank (NUNS is formal military after all). Ozma left after Alto-hime got his promotion for killing the Vajra Queen, to say that Alto-hime is getting promoted to 2LT because of desertions is utterly false. You cannot have a 2LT leading 2LTs as there can be no room for insubordination and Alto-hime already got his underlings before and not after Ozma went rogue.

   Isamu felt that he was better than Guld, and yet if he were really better then no edge that Guld possessed should have mitigated the power of the great Isamu. The base line for average is the lowly Macross Grunt, and as much as you seem to decry their average quality that does not mean that they suck since the average Luftwaffe Pilot was better skilled than his Soviet/American/French/British counter part in 1942-1943.

   Isamu was never the ace of aces as Guld kicked his ass a good number of times and really there was a reason why he was kicked off the frontlines and sent in as a test pilot. Isamu was never a team player every great ace was a team player, Isamu was talented but he never was a good fighter pilot due to his insubordination and hunger for glory. If anything those qualities caused him more problems not less. I think the fundamental difference is that you prefer the guys who become dead heroes where as I favor those who are live soldiers. Isamu did not belong in NUNS hence why they sent him off the line since his glory hounding was going to get someone killed. Hikaru was not a genius pilot, Shin was not an ace of aces either. Isamu thought that he was the greatest and carried himself as such, he had talent but he is no ace in the true military tradition. You bought the line that Isamu was an ace, all I saw was a hot head who got kicked to the rear because no one wanted to fight along side him despite his “superb” skills. You have the benefit of civilian goggles to overlook Isamu’s glaring flaws as a fighter pilot. In my experience such men often end up in trouble during peace time and get sacked, in a war they get their comrades killed and eventually get pulled off the line and into obscurity.

   Hell of all the Pilots Machida kicks the most ass since he has to do it in an inferior machine. Alto-hime is above average because the baseline for average is Maruyama.

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3. Haesslich
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

   Crusader: The Allies really screwed up their post-war monitoring, and the measures were too punitive on the one hand without doing anything to reform things in Germany post-Kaiser in order to affect any permanent changes. There was infighting as you mentioned, but at the same time the maneuverings of Goering were mucking around in the background working to build up the NSDAP into an effective force for change. It didn’t help that von Hindenburg gave them the amnesty after the Beer Hall Putsch, but at the same time they were able to take advantage of both fears of Socialism (thanks to the Communist party as well as Lenin and Stalin’s activities just a few hundred miles northeast) as well as the the lack of effective opposition parties combined with the NSDAP’s ability to absorb the other nationalist groups PLUS the Great Depression’s effects on the German economy helped drive the Nazis into power in 1933. Hindenburg may have ‘been’ the Weimar Republic thorugh those years and the Nazi popularity may have started waning as the Depression’s effects started to fade slightly, but the ‘people’ were not the only factor which allowed the Nazis to sweep in, but they were decisive for that last election after which Hitler and Himmler were able to defect other attempts to remove them by giving the people scapegoats: first monarchists, then the Jews and the Rom and the homosexuals as well as Communists and whoever else made a convenient target.

   mareo: She didn’t regress QUITE that far – if she had, then she’d just be noneresponsive to everyone. Instead, we have her acting and singing and responding to her environment… which means she’s just a self-centered little brat who’s doing what she’s told, and who forgot her goals when the going got tough.

   Halcyon: Gamlin wasn’t as good as Basara… but at the same time, Basara was likely not as good as Mylene, much less Max and Millia who both got into VF-22 Sturmvogels and kicked ass while taking names. Isamu was an ace and very, very good… but I give Guld the edge since he was able to hold it together while chasing the X-9 Ghost, even as his own fighter was busy killing him through G-force effects. I don’t know if Isamu would’ve been able to stay on target or latch onto the Ghost as well as Guld did, even if he had been the one to choose suicide instead of Guld.

   Alto has yet to run from a battle… or from his job, unlike Ranka. Ranka’s done both, has shown a self-centeredness which overcomes any sense of empathy she might have for others, and has a tendency to hide away deep in her own head when the events around her become emotionally painful like Shinji. However, unlike Shinji, she’s yet to summon up ANY spine since Episode 12, and even her decision in 21 seems to be an impulsive one, versus Shinji’s determination to make a difference in Ep 19… before his spine got crushed again, post-Kaworu.

   Plus, SMS was not the bulk of the fighting forces – what they were was the vanguard at the start of the conflict, and later on were the spearhead behind which the rest of the NUNS forces gathered. Your assumption that NUNS couldn’t resupply and recruit is also incorrect – remember that the EX-Gear systems are used for VF pilots, which meant that Mihoshi Academy’s piloting program would be drawing NUNS recruiters. Taking Ozma’s “so the NUNS is really hard up for pilots” comment in episode 2 as being proof that NUNS was understaffed is a guess unsupported by the evidence onscreen. NUNS may have been poorly trained and equipped in comparision with private forces, but that doesn’t mean they’re poorly staffed as well; they may have problems holding onto people after their terms are up perhaps, but that’s different from being poorly staffed. Plus, with the State of Emergency active on Frontier, anyone who wanted to get a non-medical discharge from NUNS would be unable to do so for the duration of the conflict… which was the same clause that bit SMS volunteers.

   Plus, it should be noted, those casualties that happened inside Islands 1 and elsewhere were mostly civillian casualties; the Vajra haven’t really met Frontier with any significant degree of force except during the long jump of Episode 19, or the current attack on the Vajra Homeworld. The deaths inside the islands, on the other hand, were mostly non-military save for any soldiers directly involved in assaulting roaming Vajra groups like during Episode 20… and even those were minimized by using the MDE to kill a bunch of them before they ran through the entire infantry contingent of NUNS, who were apparently holding their own despite the sheer numbers.

   Also remember that NUNS and SMS were seperate forces but both of whom worked under the president of Macross Frontier. They were to be integrated directly into the NUNS chain of command and table of organization, but 70% of them left with Quarter. Alto was only a Lieutenant in SMS, but he had no rank in NUNS except that which would’ve been given to him by whoever was in charge. The fact he’s commanding a squadron is because his skills are better than the average NUNS grunt, but he had no official rank in NUNS before he was integrated per orders of President Mishima.

   You’ve failed to prove that the best pilot is the main character, by the way – the best pilot is almost always a side character or secondary character; Macross had Max and Millia with Roy beating out Hikaru, but Hikaru got to lead everyone because he was the senior surviving pilot. Macross Plus had Guld and Isamu as aces, but Guld seems to have been just a hair better since I don’t see Isamu having been able to hold onto the Ghost as long as Guld did, despite the skills both possessed. Macross 7 had Max and Millia and possibly Mylene (all Jenius family members) as the best pilots, while Gamlin and Basara were superior to the average grunt. Macross Zero had Roy Focker again along with Nora and D.D. Ivanov. Macross Frontier’s best pilots still seem to be Klein, Brera, and maybe Ozma at the moment while Alto’s slowly catching up to Ozma in terms of experience but still isn’t as efficient a pilot unless he’s angry; like Isamu, he seems to do best when he’s reacting under stress rather than being good all the time.

   bakaneko: Grace didn’t lead the Vajra to Frontier the first time. If you’ll recall, they attacked Frontier first and THEN went for Galaxy. Given that Grace had no way to communicate with the Vajra until Ranka came along, I don’t see her as being able to tell the Vajra ‘attack Frontier, here are their coordinates’. Plus, we have to remember that they killed the 117th fleet where Grace was and which was researching them. That should have been THAT if they were only doing it in self-defense; if they’ve been hunting for Ranka and Ozma since then, then they’re the aggressor. They attacked several times, which is why Frontier knew about them and also why Frontier is in the state it’s in now… especially with the rampage Ranka induced in Episode 20. We didn’t see those fold-communications systems until episode 7, six episodes after they’d had some bodies to study for fold-crystals and the like.

   At this stage, it’s going to be really hard to get a peace accord going, especially since Ranka – the one who was supposedly going in to talk peace – decided to kill all humans instead.

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4. d3v
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

   @Halcyon
   Isamu can be considered an exception to the rule as the plot required him to be that level of pilot and Basara will be Basara. But go back to the original series and Hikaru could have died and the combined forces of the SDF-1 and Vrlithwai have still won against Bodolza’s fleet.

   And if anything, Alto has already proven that he is an above average pilot, having racked up a good number of kills getting himself a promotion in the process. Even Ozma acknowledged that Alto had improved when they fought, regardless of whether or not he was out to kill them (seeing as he fired missiles at Luca, he sure as heck seemed to be trying) he commented on Alto’s skill more importantly, didn’t say anything about Alto being able to match him simply because he wasn’t trying hard enough.

   @bakaneko
   Observations like that make me wonder if Kawamori’s read stuff like Ender’s Game.

   Reply
5. Crusader
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

   @bakaneko
   Who she fights for is irrelevant, but in making a an oath to protect Frontier, breaking that promise, and now fighting for the enemy is treachery. It’s not that Ranka is fighting against he humans, but her betrayal is what irritates me the most. It would have been fine if Ranka had been opposed to singing againsst the Vajra from the start, but after making that promise, then breaking it was not acceptable. It’s not about species supremacy, but rather how Ranka ended up a traitor and for all her talk of love and peace is now taking a direct hand in the slaughter of those she swore to protect. Regardless of who she sings for by doing what she did Ranka proved that she was a traitor and will be despised as such.

   There is no proof that Grace was the instigator in the first place Frontier had already encountered them along with NUNS ever since the loss of the 117th Fleet. Haesslich pretty much summed it up killing off the 117th Fleet might have been considered self defense, but the bugs were already luanching probing attacks on Frontier and other NUNS fleets. Lima-8 was the first casualty we son on frontier and Lima-8 never fired off a shot. Right not the Vajra are responsible for wrecking the homes of the humans and zentradi and pushed them to the brink. So far the colltaeral damage is immense and they have not achieved any of their goals of killing Grace or recapturing Ranka to show for it. Grace controls them now so they are the aggressors at this point.

   The Vajra began the war by trashing NUNS, raping Island 1, killing humans, and Zentradi long before Grace spread her influence, and before the Vajra had one jot or title of provocation from Frontier. Now that war comes to them, they feel very different. They deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when they sent fleets of Vajra Drones, cruisers, and big red ones, to carry war into Frontier and Folmo, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. Alto-hime wants peace, and believes it can only be reached through a war of extermination that the Vajra seem to want, and hime will ever conduct war with a view to perfect an early success. To live with the Vajra means to live in constant fear of displeasing Ranka, that is not living that is eternal servitude to Ranka. The only difference between Ranka Tyranny and Grace Tyranny is two decades. Grace would at least have the courtesy to not pretend that every one else is anything more than a slave, with Ranka we are all her “friends.”

   @Haesslich
   Agreed, but let us not forget the efficiency of the secret police in eliminating the last remnants of determined opposition. I still think that had Hindenburg lived a few years more that the NDSAP would have much more problems since their economic skills were none too great (they did delay the assumption of a war economy until 1943 which peaked in 1944…when it was already too late).

   NUNS is better than most people give them credit for even if they are the mass of grunts for the most part, if SMS are the Marines then NUNS is the Army, the force that can fight a protracted war. NUNS doesn’t suck especially since they did form a Diamond Force of their own under Machida.

   Peace talks at this stage are nigh impossible since the only ambassador available is the much hated traitor. Frontier would not be able to negotiate in good faith if they suspect everything Ranka has to say. Given how Ranka is the public face of thier doom now the only avenue left is either Sheryl or forcing the Vajra in to uncharted space.

   @d3v
   Indeed Alto-hime has acquitted himself well for the most part, like Hikaru overall hime’s loss is not that big of a deal, but hime might be the only one to challenge Grace through the power of Kabuki.

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6. bakaneko
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

   > Grace didn’t lead the Vajra to Frontier the first time. If you’ll recall, they attacked Frontier first and THEN went for Galaxy.

   Oh my god. Talk about deflecting blame. If you recall correctly, the Vajra came because a certain ambitious lady researched on a captured Vajra for her ultimate evil plan and injected their cells or virus into her colleague who then gave birth to a certain girl who knew nothing of the power bestowed upon her.

   The Vajra were simply reacting to a beacon they received as being from one of their kind. Ask you this question, if our radar picks up a radio signal from a remote deserted island in the middle of Atlantic, would we not go to retrieve him? And if some natives there shoot us on the way, would we not retaliate? And if we fail the first time, would we not go back and try again?

   I’ll ask again: do you really think the Vajra are evil?

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7. Haesslich
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

   Most of the NUNS data regarding their level of training comes from SMS, which has a natural bias against government workers. However, at the same time they tend to be somewhat less effective than SMS with a few exceptions like Diamond Force, because they’re ‘average Joes’ who are short on training time and equipment due to budgets. With wartime situations, they tend to improve mostly because people cut loose the money required to equip them and experience under fire tends to toughen up most of the survivors. With the exception of the United States Army, most national forces tend to suffer a lot more under peacetime with regards to morale and skill; Reagan’s greatest contribution was to put money into training and equipment for all branches of the United States’ military, which resulted in a harder-hitting, tougher force that kicked the doors and took names during the first Gulf War. The NUNS under Glass seemed more to be like the United States Army of the 1960s, which did what it could with the money they had, but which for the most part lacked morale and training levels weren’t QUITE as good as they could’ve been… and suffered in comparision to the levels seen during World War II after 1941 and the Korean War about a decade after that. The late Sixties and early Seventies were probably the worst time for the United States Army in the past century as far as funds for training and equipment went; the draw-down in the Navy after the Gulf War wasn’t nearly as bad, relatively speaking.

   However, the secret police didn’t really kick into gear until the SA got eliminated… a year or so after the NSDAP swept into power. As I said, the fact they assimilated other parties who had compatible philosophies meant that there weren’t all that many real opposition forces arranged against them, and the actual opposition in the parliament was split as it had been throughout the rule of the Weimar Republic.

   bakaneko: Oh my god. Talk about deflecting blame. If you recall correctly, the Vajra came because a certain ambitious lady researched on a captured Vajra for her ultimate evil plan and injected their cells or virus into her colleague who then gave birth to a certain girl who knew nothing of the power bestowed upon her.

   The Vajra were simply reacting to a beacon they received as being from one of their kind. Ask you this question, if our radar picks up a radio signal from a remote deserted island in the middle of Atlantic, would we not go to retrieve him? And if some natives there shoot us on the way, would we not retaliate? And if we fail the first time, would we not go back and try again?

   I’ll ask again: do you really think the Vajra are evil?

   I’m not saying Vajra are evil – but they did attack first, like the Formics of Ender’s Game as far as Frontier was concerned. And they HAD previously coexisted peacefully with Ranshe Mei and company until something (Ranka) drove them to start slaughtering the 117th Research Fleet. If it was merely an act of self-defense, then they had successfully defended themselves from any attackers.

   Now notice in Episode 1 that there were no ‘beacons’ – Ranka wasn’t singing professionally, and we didn’t see that weird glowing thing in her stomach till Episode 7. They came into contact with Frontier, opened up and killed the patrol group (Deculture Edition, Episode 1) and then were fired upon after the recon drones and the patrol were wiped out.

   They didn’t just come in to look for someone – they came in and KILLED, and only after they saw Ranka did they focus on capturing. Your analogy is flawed – it’s like saying that, because an American Navy ship picks up a distress beacon and it’s surrounded by Finnish sailors in a ship, that the US Navy crew has the right to kill the Finnish sailors in order to pick up the beacon.

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8. Crusader
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

   @bakaneko
   Grace was only there for recon and one experiment. Sheryl’s illness was suppressed and she would not have been a beacon until after Sheryl entered a terminal stage, which if you recall she was not when she first stepped on Frontier. Grace was supposed to have one tour and then leave. Grace did not know how to create a little queen and nine fairies later Grace still did not know and had to have the discovery handed to her when Ranka was discovered.

   Grace could not have infected Ranshe for the express purpose of creating Ranka. Grace needed Ranshe’s data and she needed Ranshe alive to steal all the data that she could. Grace only knew that Sheryl was a candidate for Vajra beacon, and even then Sheryl was a failure. The Vajra launched a probing attack for recon in the first episode, trashing Lima-8 was an act of aggression, and they did not expect to find Ranka, hence why they broke off and hid until he time was right.

   When the first Vajra attack came there was no beacon the Vajra later found one and Grace’s Fairy never was a true beacon. Lima-8 did not go hostile on the bugs, they went hostile on Lima-8 and NUNS assumed that because Lima-8 was knocked out and the drones they sent were trashed and jammed that the enemy was likely hostile. Frontier was not in the wrong in discerning the intent of the first Vajra scouting party, the Vajra were on armed recon and were shooting at everything that moved that was not partly Vajra.

   Given how other groups of NUNS had also encountered the Vajra which had gone hostile on them without any presence of Grace or Ranka, the Vajra were doing armed flybys with guns blazing. It is not reflecting blame the Vajra fired the first shot on Frontier before they found Ranka or heard Sheryl sing. If all they wanted to do was talk then why blow up poor Lima-8 and shoot down some scout drones? Perhaps they thought it was fun, but even so they were being belligerent and they did adopt an aggressive stance by blowing up Lima-8.

   @Haesslich
   I agree that NUNS under Glass was very much a peace time force that had lost its edge due to budget contraints, but at least they did not aggravate the problem by continuing the draft. One of the reasons why Westmoreland had such a head ache was because he had to deal with a military that still drafted people who did not want to be there. The move to an all volunteer force did much to help the over all quality of the armed forces as much as an increased budget. Carter had already begun fostering the high tech nature of the US Military and Regan built on that by breaking open the treasury to pay for it in copious amounts. While there were some budget cuts the Korean War more or less vindicated old methods of fighting war, while by the time Vietnam rolled around we had invested too much into strategic power based on nukes, and left the Air Force under bomber Generals who neglected the tactical elements of the USAF giving the loss of the old kill ratios because the MIG-21 was in some respects superior to American fighters like the F-105 and the F-4. Money for training helped a lot but I still think that by getting rid of the draft netted more benefits in the end simply because the only ones who remained wanted to be there.

   The Germans got around the funding problems and limitations of Versailles by making that 100,000 who wanted to be there the best and by going all out on gathering the collective experience of the last war and recent wars to formulate the basis of their doctrine. Money can only do so much, but as long as the people getting trained chose to be there, morale will be high. Singapore spends an awful lot to train and equip Impz and other luckless conscripts, and their morale seems pretty low given the volume of complaints.

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9. bakaneko
   Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

   > The Vajra began the war by trashing NUNS, raping Island 1, killing humans, and Zentradi long before Grace spread her influence.

   I see. So, it wasn’t like some human were experiencing with the fold crystals which sent beacons around calling in the Vajra. Somehow, the Vajra were actively seeking out humans and systematically eliminating us. Oh yea, I remember now, Leon had said that; and we all know that a leader does not lie.

   > … [Vajra] to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people …

   Rah. Didn’t matter that we had used even more destructive weapons like the fold bomb, death ray beam, and other stuff that wiped their entire fleet clean in one swipe. After all, we only killed off their soldiers. Oh wait. But weren’t we going to wipe every single one of them on the planet too?

   Oh well, they’re just bugs.

   > Alto-hime wants peace, and believes it can only be reached through a war of extermination that the Vajra seem to want.

   So, hime is a warmonger? Peace and prosperity through extermination of a race. Hmm… I vaguely recall reading that in my history book somewhere.

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10. bakaneko
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    > Now notice in Episode 1 that there were no ‘beacons’

    Probably not from Ranka’s beacon. But as I recall, Grace talked about leading Grace there as their next step in her scheme.

    In episode one, Grace led them to Frontier.

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11. Haesslich
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    bakaneko: Probably not from Ranka’s beacon. But as I recall, Grace talked about leading Grace there as their next step in her scheme.

    In episode one, Grace led them to Frontier.

    No, she didn’t. Grace had NO link to the Vajra at all after the 117th died – the reason she needed Sheryl at first was to create a Vajra communications/control device, and that’s why she infected her with V-Type after finding her ten years ago. However, Sheryl in that sense was a failure; it wasn’t until the V-type infection hit her brain (which made her condition terminal) that she could emit any sort of fold-waves at all, and needed the fold-quartz earring in order to amplify them enough to be heard (Episode 22). Grace knew the Vajra were out there; she knew that they had some sort of FTL communications, and knew they wiped out the 117th. However, she didn’t know where their homeworld was, nor did she have any way to tie her implant technology into them… which is why she was so happy to find Ranka, who could lead her to the Vajra homeworld (and did) along with giving her a link to tie into VajraNET with (which she started in this episode).

    Therefore, there were no beacons – Grace wanted to tie into the Vajra Hive-mind, but couldn’t as the research had been stopped by the Vajra wiping out the 117th. She and a dozen others (Ranka, Ozma) escaped the destruction of the 117th, but afterwards she and Galaxy knew only roughly where they were but had no specific location for the homeworld; else she wouldn’t have needed to track Ranka and Brera in order to find her treasure island (Ep 23). Thus, this means that the Vajra either believe in Recon in Force (which means they’re a hostile group, or at least very aggressive) or else they were hunting for humans to kill because they weren’t just doing it in self-defense.

    Even bees and wasps tend to stop attacking you once you’ve left the vicinity of the nest. The Vajra are intelligent enough as a group to communicate, if only to specific folk (like Ranka, Ep 14). Yet, they also were more than willing to kill Frontier’s folk when they saw them; reference Lima-8, the Ghost drones, then the patrol group sent after they were wiped out. At this point, it’s no longer self-defense, unless you’re a very proactive type. The type of group that everyone else tends to call invaders.

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12. Crusader
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    @bakaneko
    Howard Glass was in charge and all he was looking for was an uninhabited planet for the citizens in his care. Grace had just got there and the bugs were already on their way. Grace was busy with Sheryl’s concert to have started doing anything. The Vajra attack was under way before Sheryl’s concert and had reached a climax in the middle of Sheryl’s number.

    It’s not about believing in Leon, Leon did not say much of anything, heck at the time he was busy enjoying his Cathy Glass before he married into a powerful political family. Leon did not even know about Ranka until he started researching the Vajra after the first attack had already passed. leon did not plan any of it, he was just unscrupulous enough to use it to his advantage. He never forced the Vajra to do anything, but they have given Leon the the big bad enemy that he needs to consolidate his power. I doubt that even now Leon knows what Grace was really up to, as far as I can tell Leon thinks that the MDE bombs are the be all end all of weapons. Only Bilrer knew something about fold quartz prior to the first bug attack and Bilrer was not actively sending out SMS to harvest bugs. Fold quartz has been found before in the case of Mao and her earrings. It was only after the Vajra became a threat that the harvesting of fold quartz began.

    Let’s not forget who blew a hole into Island 1 first in the opening stages the humans were barely fending off the Vajra. NUNS was not throwing around reaction weapons, and fold bombs until after the Vajra came out in force. The first battle was a resounding success for the bugs as a puny recon element ran amok inside the NUNS defense line as they were pretty much powerless with VF-171s and cap ships getting blown to pieces with no dead bugs to show for it.

    NUNS was not talking of extermination until after the Vajra showed them no mercy. From the NUNS point of view the Vajra are out to wage a war of extermination against them for no discernible reason. The natural thing to do is not to ask why as the Vajra are blowing them away but to repay their violence with violence. As far as Alto-hime and Frontier are concerned the Vajra have chosen war, they tried to run away and they were followed, is it so wrong of Frontier to give the bugs all the war that they want?

    Grace did not anticipate the first attack as it had transpired, if she had you can bet Grace would have gotten a better seat and would have already infiltrated the Frontier network instead of wasting until episode 3 to do it under the pretext of saving Sheryl.

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13. bakaneko
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    No link to *control* the Vajra, but Grace knows that they react to certain fold communication wave that she has used over and over to lead the Vajra to Frontier—like in the episode where she fold-bombed a third of a planet.

    More than willing to slaughter Frontier’s folks? Hmm, I wonder what were those three Vajra’s thinking when they stood quietly behind a bunch of humans, waving their cute little antenna, as Ranka sang on stage.

    Reply
14. Crusader
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    She might have discovered that after the first attack given how there were no Vajra attacks on the other fleets that Sheryl sang for, Grace did not know enough about the Vajra to have done much it was only because Ranka was there that the data Grace was able to get exceeded her wildest expectations. The second attack on Frontier before the long jump under Glass was not Grace’s doing, she was busy making MDE bombs and preparing Battle Frontier as Ranka’s stage. Grace did not plan any of the Vajra attacks until the last one, she only reacted better to the changing situation and altered her plans as events unfolded.

    The Vajra are only tolerable when Ranka sings or is happy, they are not getting along and playing nice because they naturally do so. A better measure of natural Vajra is in the absence of Ranka. When she isn’t there they seem to be just as happy swatting down anything that looks like a plane. As long as Ranka sings in a happy state all they can think of is moeeeeeee. When Ranka isn’t there the disposition to kill is much more prevalent. Ranka is an odd product of first contact and an unstable one at that. It could be said that so long as one of their own is adored by the lowly natives things are fine but mistreat the local Vajra or have none there to begin with is grounds for a massacre.

    When Ranka is not known to be there killing humans and zentradi is fine. When Ranka is happy and singing they play nice, when Ranka is hurt they kill more, when Ranka labels Frontier an enemy the bugs kill humans and zentrans with perfect unison, and when Ranka says she wants to go back to Frontier when she is in their hands they still kill humans and Zentrans. To me it seems killing humans and zentrans is more the norm than the exception. Heck even when Ranka sings natural Aimo they were still blazing away with their beam cannons in episode 14, before Grace discovered her little queen. Even when Ranka asked them to stop they ignored her. Whatever the thought process that the Vajra have not matter how you cut it they seem more disposed to hostility towards the children of protoculture than making friends with them.

    It is still possible that the Vajra were a prototype bioweapon created by the supervision army to stem the tide of Zentradi and the remnants of protoculture. Just because Ranka believes in peace and some bugs find Ranka moe does not mean that the bugs are not overall hostile to humans and zentradi given how violence is more apart of their character than peacefully waving at a Ranka concert. Ai-kun was still trying to kill Alto-hime for no reason other than hime was there. Everything that the bugs have done has been for the most part hostile. One instance of peace with Queen Ranka as idol of Frontier is not a basis for peace. Once Ranka is dead will the bugs play nice? I think not given how in her absence the bugs have no problem blowing up poor grunts like Lima-8.

    Reply
15. Haesslich
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    bakaneko: She knew they used foldspace comms, but she had no apparent way of generating them at the time. LAI only cracked the tech relatively recently, and even if she COULD generate fold waves she had no way to attract the Vajra’s attention and to tell them to attack – the whole point of the research using Sheryl was to find a way to communicate with the Vajra and to tie in her implants to the VajraNET. It’s like saying that, because I can light a fire I can suddenly send Morse code messages without knowing Morse code. And THAT event with the planet happened well after the contact was made with the Vajra – and the Vajra knew where Frontier was, as they’d gotten signals from Ranka before that (ep 7) and they had laid eggs on it along with having units apparently shadowing the fleet, which was why the long jump in Ep 19 was so important – that way they could shake off any pursuers by making sure they weren’t trailing them.

    bakaneko: More than willing to slaughter Frontier’s folks? Hmm, I wonder what were those three Vajra’s thinking when they stood quietly behind a bunch of humans, waving their cute little antenna, as Ranka sang on stage.

    They weren’t full-grown, and Ranka incited them into attacks with her song. You’ve managed to ignore every piece of information presented that contradicts your pet theory, [probably because your e-penis size is so important to you (or your ego) that anything that serves to point out that you might be incorrect is inconsequential. How… childish/Ranka-like of you.

    And for the record, Episode 1 had the first contact start by Vajra attacking the patrol group, then the drones, then the follow-up group. Episode 20′s Vajra drones weren’t full-grown, and were calmed by Ranka until she incited them to kill. The Vajra don’t seem to like humans very much, and they didn’t apparently try to communicate with them since Frontier’s headquarters didn’t pick up any transmissions at all… and LAI didn’t seem to either, even though they had the technology to detect fold-comms. If they didn’t, then they wouldn’t have been able to create the technology for fold-communications so quickly (episode 1-7 took place in but a few weeks); it’s kinda hard to go from theory to implementation that fast, after all. They, like Grace, probably knew fold-comms existed as a principle but didn’t have the ability to implement until they got their hands on more fold-quartz.

    Reply
16. mareo
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Hmm… I can understad that people hate her if she, on free will, in sound mind and memory, accepted to be the tool of Grace and destroy all the Frontier Fleet. But that is not the case. In my opinion she is a victim, not a criminal. Maybe we can hate and despise weak people, like adicts to alcohol or drugs or gambling, they destroy themselves and the people around they love. But we know that they dont want to harm them, they just are to weak for resist to be controled. More than hate, they deserve pity and be helped by the people that love them. Im not an expert in psychology or psychiatry or law, but in my humble opinion (everyone feel free to discusse my opinion with good manners please).

    1 – Comparing she with Hitler is pretty much an exagerated critic, that fail to recognize that she is a victim, not a criminal.

    2 – If people hate she for be weak and become a damsel on distress in place of a heroine. Fell free to do so, it cant be helped. I to dont like she like these, the diference is that I dont hate I just pity the character development.

    BTW: I have these strange idea that Kawamory planed to build up all these hate on purpouse for a big Ranka return, but I just cant imagine how. An exile or suicide ending dont look so great after making Ranka popularity enter in free fall. Make these well in just one chapter, is nearly in the level of miracles, so I dont put my hand on the fire for these theory.

    Reply
17. JustinStrife
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    When did Guld EVER beat Isamu? What are you guys smoking? Regardless of whether or not, you are referring to Macross Plus the Movie, or Macross Plus the OVA, Guld never beat Isamu at anything. Guld was in a superior fighter, yet Isamu was beating him on their scoring at the test center. The YF-19 had killed several test pilots, yet Isamu was the first to master it. Isamu had real combat experience before he returned to Eden, where we never found out if Guld had ever fired on another living being or not(before Isamu anyway). Even outside the hospital with Isamu injured, they were toe to toe in a fist fight.

    Sorry Crusader, but this is the first time I have to disagree extremely strongly against you on something that is Macross.

    Reply
18. Haesslich
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    mareo: Also note that drunk drivers or people who engage in murder, even if they’re under the influence of drugs, don’t usually get much pity – people tend to draw the line once blood is shed, and the more bloodshed there is… the less pity they get. Stalin certainly had some mental issues, but people tend to revere him or revile him more than they pity him. Ditto Jeffrey Dahmer and other serial killers who definitely have mental problems. Ranka’s been rather conscious of what she’s done up to this point, barring her wish-for-everyone-to-die sending the Vajra into a rampage, but at the same time she’s almost sociopathically self-centered. Psychologists who study children indicate that children don’t really develop empathy for others until the age of four or five – Ranka seems to be younger than that mentally, due to her inability to empathize with others, maybe not even her brother… and she’s certainly lost sight of her original goal. And I wasn’t the one who brought Hitler into it – as I noted, she wasn’t a Hitler so much as she was a spineless little girl.

    JustinStrife: So you’re saying that, if Isamu was in the YF-21, he could’ve kept up with the Ghost?

    Reply
19. JustinStrife
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Since he never got to pilot the YF-21 we’ll never know. But you have to consider that in a conventional fighter, that he had less time in, than Guld had in his YF-21, Isamu scored higher on the tests and they were dead equals when they fought each other. In order for someone to be better than someone else, they have to beat them. Guld never beat Isamu. Isamu never beat Guld in a dog fight either, as they always ended in a draw when they fought. However, Isamu did have the technological handicap as well as not having the added genetic advantage that Guld had in being part Zentraidi, and to still come out even, shows there was no way Guld was better than him. Equals very possibly, but Guld was not better. We’ll never know if Isamu could have beaten the Ghost or not with his YF-19 as their little skirmish was rather short.

    So answer my question. How was Guld better than Isamu?

    Reply
20. Haesslich
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    I’d have to say that the question is ‘was Isamu angry at the moment?’ Isamu’s talents only really showed themselves when he was under stress, or at least his best performances were under that. Otherwise, he was technically very good as a flier but sub-par when it came to being anything but a maverick; he’s seen combat, but he’s the sort of pilot who goes off with a head full of steam and who has to be dragged out of a fight. And when he’s in ‘mad mode’, he really seems to excel as the last half-hour of the movie showed.

    As technical skills go, I’d probably be inclined to give Guld the edge – he may not have seen combat, but he seemed to be somewhat more precise with his flying than Isamu was… but whether that was all due to the mind-control system or innate skill will depend on who you’re talking to. For that last bit, Guld’s Zentradi heritage wouldn’t have been all that much of a help except in staying conscious under all those G-forces. The fact he managed to hold onto the Ghost’s tail and tag it at the end suggests he was a superior pilot, period; whether he’s superior to Isamu is really up to the viewer to decide. I’d have to give it to Guld by just a hair, skills-wise – Isamu was a very good instictive pilot, and had to be in order to keep up with the superior-performing YF-21, but the only way to have resolved the question in a definitive way would’ve been to put them both in the same fighter, which we never got to see them do.

    Besides, wasn’t the main reason the YF-21 was passed over in favor of the inferior-on-paper YF-19 was the mind-control system was thought to make the pilot mentally unstable? That was the conclusion that Colonel Johnson drew, although he suppressed the findings in the end. The VF-22 that followed from that redesign lacked the morphing wings and mind-control system, but was arguably one of ‘the’ hot planes in Macross 7, which is why Millia and Max sortied in them.

    Reply
21. JustinStrife
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    See that’s how we’ll never know who was the better pilot. Since they were in two different fighters, with two different methods of being operated, and the only times they were even pitted against each other, they were dead-even. I don’t believe Guld was a superior pilot. He also had mental issues of his own(damn these main characters and their mental baggage) depending on the moment in the series you put him in. This is something that will be speculated on for many years after, but unless the director says one way or the other, it’s only speculation and there is no clear answer. To claim one, when the facts show it a wash, is only arrogance.

    Reply
22. bakaneko
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    @Haesslich,

    > She knew they used foldspace comms, but she had no apparent way of generating them at the time. LAI only cracked the tech relatively recently, and even if she COULD generate fold waves she had no way to attract the Vajra’s attention and to tell them to attack

    What did you think she meant when she commented on the Vajra’s fleet, let the fold wave be your guide? Grace did not need to TELL the Vajra to attack—all she needed to do was to cross the mindless Vajra’s path with that of the eager-to-shoot-first-then-dissect-them-later Frontier.

    Pet theory? What is my “pet theory?” That the Vajra are not as scheming and evil as the humans? That they are capable of staying peaceful? Then yes, I am proposing that the Vajra were PROVOKED by the humans—Grace and Leon to lead the pack—into their atrocities. Yes, the Vajra are merely tools under the masterminds of HUMAN.

    Please attribute your blame in the right places instead of on a poor little girl.

    As to your brattish, immature personal attack, I will just let it pass. Please be more civilized, especially on other people’s blog.

    Reply
23. bakaneko
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Look guys, let’s stay calm here. I think this discussion is getting a bit beyond a rational exchange.

    This is anime and we are supposed to enjoy it.

    I will apologize here first for my inappropriate words that may have caused some of the unnecessary heat.

    Reply
24. Crusader
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    @JustinStrife
    Isamu loses in my book because he thinks he’s hot shit the first time we saw him fly he had talent but not what it takes to be a good fighter pilot IMHO. Ismau was only after glory and was not above kill stealing and mocking his comrades and flooding the com lines with his bragging. Isamu was tossed off the front lines because every one who flew with him knew that he’s the kind of SOB that gets guys killed because he’s not in the military to serve he’s in it to for Isamu. Most aces are sent to train new pilots in order to pass down their experience Isamu was literally kicked off the front lines because he was a liability in combat. Heck even in training he was not being precise, if it had been a real battle in the Quedluun range Isamu would have shot up a comrade because he wanted to do things the quick and easy way.

    As a maverick Isamu is the best but I rate my aces based on their ability to function in a group of four, Isamu is a flight of one. The kill count means nothing if Isamu kills and equal number of wingmen. Isamu is a kid at heart and as such is no fighter pilot, it’s not about kills or skills its about not losing your buddies because you get sloppy or arrogant. Guld had his issues but given a conventional control surface he would have done better as a fighter pilot, since Guld doubled as an engineer his contribution to fighter design is infinitely more valuable than hot shot who is hated by every one he’s ever flown with.

    Isamu might be a better pilot, but Guld is the better “fighter pilot” because he could keep things together in a more acceptable manner, the fatal flaw of the YF-22 was that it responded to random thoughts of maliciousness and could not keep up with a fully functional brain on occasion. Test showed Isamu had talent, but a fighter pilot has to be able to work in a team Isamu actively sought to aggravate his team, while Guld did not. Isamu is the better pilot, but Guld is invariably the better fighter pilot.

    Besides we all know who has to walk back to base at the end of the first episode of the OVA. heck given the choice of taking Isamu or Guld into combat I’d choose Guld if I wanted to make it out alive. I’d shove Isamu on on the first live grenade because otherwise he would get the whole team killed with his theatrics. As good as Isamu is at shooting down the enemy he could never work as part of a team and that is the kind of asshole nobody in the line of fire wants around.

    @bakaneko
    Frontier had every reason to shoot first ask questions later, because the last time they ran afoul of a Vajra recon patrol thy got kicked in the teeth, the Vajra were not helping matters by defolding a huge fleet and scrambling all fighters that made a b-line for Frontier.

    A carrier that arrives off some other guy’s shore and launches all his fighters and bombers is not here to negotiate in good faith. It’s not about what is right when it comes to the war, but Frontier has responded in a reasonable manner and in my opinion the correct manner because the Vajra don’t seem to want to talk or are otherwise incapable of talking. Not even Ranka understands their true intentions, and by directly ignoring Ranka and firing off three shots at Island 1 no sane person can say that was an act of peace.

    For whatever reason the bugs are hostile to Frontier, Frontier did not do anything to them until the bugs started shooting. Given that this is a war most people will not bother to ask for the reasons as to why, the bugs are shooting, shooting back seems like the logical thing to do. Frontier tried to flee from the bugs, and they were followed and crushed for doing so.

    Let’s be honest the bugs have not made peace offerings after their force recon. Maybe they are still smarting from the 117th Fleet, but even so that was 11 years ago and Frontier was not trying to hit the hornets nest. The Vajra found Frontier and started shooting, Frontier tried investigating with drones they got shot down, they sent ins some VF-171s they too bit it.

    Ranka is not entirely at fault but the Vajra are hardly peace loving bugs that you claim them to be. The Vajra adopted a hostile stance when they first came to Frontier, there was no warning save the glow of their beams. They are hardly innocent in all of this. If they are sentient then they are already at a state of war with NUNS over the 117th Fleet, if they are merely animals then they are dangerous and cannot be reasoned with.

    Reply
25. Haesslich
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Justin: The reason I vote Guld as the better technical pilot is because of his last pursuit of the Ghost. At the velocities both he and the Ghost fighter were moving, even the slightest fraction of a degree off of the Ghost’s course would’ve meant a few dozen or hundreds more meters of distance after a few seconds of flight – yet he continued to hold to the Ghost’s tail no matter how it moved and was able to close in tight to it. Instinctive flying sense means knowing when to jink and when to dodge, or how to move in and out of a firefight; technical skills means knowing how to hold and predict a course exactly so as to know where to lay your fire as the targeting system can only do so much to project where a round will land. Guld managed to lock onto the Ghost and not let go; even with the mind-control system allowing him a very fine degree of precision, his ability to keep on the X-9 and follow it despite its faster reflexes and lack of mass (which in turn would mean less inertia to overcome – aka an ability to make tighter banks and turns) show his technical piloting is VERY good. I don’t know if Isamu could’ve kept up with it even in the YF-21; he was showier and flashier in his maneuvers, which doesn’t always translate to being precise.

    But Isamu, like Alto in this series, seemed to work best as an instinctive flier when he had a mad on; when you got his adrenaline going and when he was angry he flew like a demon. He was very good as far as instincts and a sense of his position in space versus that of an enemy, which allowed him to pull stunts as he did in the show.

    bakaneko: The Vajra aren’t mindless – each Vajra is one cell/unit of a hive-mind, which is what the research of the 117th determined, and that’s why they were able to talk to Ranka after capturing her. On the one hand, you say they’re completely peaceful and the humans were the aggressors: but then we see them attacking Frontier forces in Ep 1. Grace seemed pleasantly surprised that the Vajra had found them, and Leon was anticipating contact with them due to what data he had from the earlier researches. Again, I will reiterate – the Vajra shot first; this is not Star Wars Special Edition where Greedo ‘shot first’. Both the Deculture edition as well as the regular TV Broadcast edition show the Vajra attacking Frontier’s patrol group first, then they killed the Ghost fighters, and then took down the pursuit squadron who were informed that the previous squadron had been attacked and wiped out.

    The Vajra may have been provoked 11 years ago – perhaps by Ranka or perhaps by Grace. However, if it was a self-defense reaction either instinctive or reasoned, then destroying the 117th Fleet should’ve ended matters; at that point the threat was dead, and they should have been unaware there were other humans moving around. Yet, when they were encountered again we saw the Vajra attack human fighters who had not attacked them, then they took out the unarmed Ghost fighters sent to recon and see what had happened to the first group. Only in the third wave did they get attacked, and then they started pulling out the ship-killing cannons.

    If this was just a rescue, then why were they blowing destroyers apart? Given your earlier (flawed) analogy, this means that if I suddenly find out my sister’s at the mall, that I should go in there and kill every man, woman, and child that I see because they’re there around my sister. Yes, we’ve seen the Vajra at relative peace (in Ranka’s flashback), but we’ve also seen them go aggressively after any human targets later on. This is no longer self-defense; they want to kill humans for whatever reason, and did so as soon as they encountered them.

    Beyond that, if Grace was able to track Vajra movements or was able to lure them to wherever she wanted before the humans got their hands on supplies of fold-quartz, then the timing couldn’t have been worse for her. They attacked even before the concert started, and weren’t at all interested in capture until one of their units saw Ranka. She could’ve lured them anytime in the previous eleven years to a certain spot and then done whatever she wanted. However, until she had a way to communicate and control with them they were useless to her. She had no way to tie into their fold-comm network and she had no idea Ranka was part of Frontier’s personnel complement until episode 4 or so. Therefore, she had no reason to lure the Vajra to Frontier – she merely took advantage of the situation, especially once she got a hold of someone whose voice could affect the Vajra. We know she can monitor ‘emotional waves’, but at the same time Ranka never did any real singing when Grace was on Frontier till at least Episode 3, and had to link up with the Dulfim in Episode 7 before she had all her equipment and some personnel to work with who weren’t under Leon’s control.

    If the Vajra were able to hold onto a grudge for eleven years, and were willing to kill all humans as soon as they saw them again, then they’re just as evil as humanity and as aggressive and willing to murder. At this point, they are no longer innocents, especially not once they started killing hundreds; even the Formics of Ender’s Game understood that after the Second Invasion, and had expected the humans to attack them as they had attacked humanity. They accepted that fact, and once communication was made with Ender through the Ansible could only do what they could to preserve their people from total extinction and trusted in Ender to help them make amends for their actions. And unlike Ender, Ranka seems quite willing to kill humans because her brother told her to – if she’d developed even a little bit of a spine, her dream of peace might have been possible… even if the way she went about it would’ve made any humans on Frontier less likely to trust her.

    If you’re going to present arguments, I would suggest at least bringing up examples and data to back up your ‘facts’. So far, you’ve ignored anything presented that contradicts your position and then in turn seek to cast blame back on the poster who questions you on that stance with the response “Okay, so where’s your proof?” That is childish, and a poor way to convince anyone that you’re correct in your opinion.

    Crusader: Isamu’s a hothead, which is why he was stuck flying test planes to begin with. Still, as an instinctive pilot he’s hard to beat, and I doubt Alto could match him in either technical flying or simple flying sense. Max and Millia would’ve probably flown rings around him, but I doubt anyone else shown so far could’ve.

    Reply
26. JustinStrife
    Posted September 22, 2008 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Crusader: Gee kind of reminds me of Maverick from Top Gun…

    Too bad your newest post doesn’t do anything for your argument about Guld being better than Isamu. Guld had his own ego problems(trying to kill the opposing test pilot? Not to mention his issue with his past?). Guld only worked well as a teammate when it was convenient for him.

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but on the ego thing, all top aces have egos. Max, Roy, Hikaru, Isamu, Guld, Shin, Ozma, etc. It’s kind of required to being the best of the best. The question comes, how well do you use it, and will it get others killed. Isamu and Guld had their own ways of risking others’ lives. Neither one was innocent, and neither one was disciplined. Just talk to the good Major on Eden base about how good a soldiers they both were…

    If you want to bring up the end of OVA 1, don’t forget the whole scene that got Isamu to walk back to base. Guld had a panic attack and went limp dicked, and Isamu had to bail his ass out. Then after he did that, Guld forgot what system he was plugged into, and had the image of crushing Isamu’s VF-11 Thunderbolt into the ground with his thrust. Which lo and behold, did that, all the while Isamu was just doing what he was told and making sure Guld didn’t become one with Eden’s landscape.

    Don’t let facts get in the way of a good argument though…

    Haesslich: Much better arguments. This I can deal with. I don’t have much to counter your point, as it is extremely valid, except with, we’ll never know how Isamu would have done against the Ghost in a longer fight as we weren’t allowed that to happen. His strategies might have been very different from Guld’s, and his unpredictability could have either gotten him lucky, or dead a lot sooner. In the end, he had to go rescue Myung(why i have no idea), and Guld was bait to keep the Ghost off his back. Made for much better dramatics that way(and Guld got to redeem himself in the end).

    Reply
27. mareo
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    @Haesslich
    I dont put a names on the last post, I tried to answer two opinions in one answer, I try to be more clear on to who I am answering. It just that I thinked that both answers are deeply related somehow.

    Yes, people like a teenager drunken driver that kill someone dont get to much pity. But we all know that it dont was made on purpouse of killing people. We also know that most of these people have problems and is family, friends and teacher or boss responability to detect and try to help these people to dont do these things. I have to recall that with the help of Leon, in the name of national security, Grace got control of Ranka and isolated she from most of them, with one of the final goals of Grace to be the breackdown of Ranka’s mind for having a numbed pupet. Ranka is not the mastermind, she is not a willing accomplice, she is victim whose mind and spirit was broken and forced to do terrible things. I feel pity for someone that was forced to attack the people she love and you feel hate that she was so immature that she falled in a trap. Im ok if you do. But sorry, I dont think that she being so naive, have to be described like she is some kind of psychopath or that she cant empathize with others.

    Let me say it in simple language: Ranka is just stupid.

    Reply
28. Haesslich
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Plus, I will note that at least Ender was tricked into engaging in the war with the Formics – Ranka hasn’t got that excuse. Brera told her they were the enemy, but she can see that they’re humans and can see that big ship with the ship-islands is Frontier; and she had it shot at and is trying to blow it apart. She watched Alto get shot at and blown apart by Brera. She is not being deceived, and she is passively going along with things. Ender had a conscience and a sense of empathy – and that was why he could fight the Formics so well, and could understand how they did things and spot the control ship. Ranka so far has yet to demonstrate any empathy beyond that which was biologically enforced by the V-type infection in her innards. She can empathize with Vajra because she can feel them die; she can’t seem to empathize or even sympathize with humans because she can’t FEEL Them die, only see. And unless they’re her brother, it doesn’t seem to matter at the moment.

    Complete sociopathy is one definition of evil, at least according to Christian values and mores. So in a sense, Ranka is the most evil person there.

    Reply
29. Haesslich
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Justin: Max was very self-effacing and didn’t seem to have much of an ego problem as Hikaru or Roy, much less Isamu or Alto. Shin’s ego was as big as Roy’s, although probably less than Isamu’s after he’d been shot down and lost his RTO. As for Guld, I think he was the better choice to go after the Ghost – he had the better fighter, and he was able to hold onto the Ghost’s tail the whole time with his talents and his plane. That, and he wanted to make amends to Isamu and Myung for his actions of some years past, which put him in a suicidal frame of mind… which, coincidentally, was required to fight the Ghost with its greater acceleration and lack of a human pilot to hamper its abilities. A pilot who wanted to live through that fight probably would’ve been unable to beat the X-9; he would’ve pulled out at some point and gotten wasted by the Ghost in return.

    Besides, Isamu would’ve been the one was the more likely to get seduced by Sharon Apple. If Guld had gone down, he might’ve seen a more real image due to his mind-controlled systems but he likely would’ve shaken it off faster. The dramatic impact of Isamu rejecting the fake for something real (Myung) would be lost if it had gone down that way.

    mareo: Grace is manipulating Ranka, not controlling her; Grace is controlling Brera because he’s a cyborg and undoubtedly has implants in his head to make him go along with Grace, but Ranka is being manipulated because she always does what she’s told and has no spine to speak of. She’s very stupid, but at the same time in the past (Episode 21) she wasn’t being controlled or directly manipulated by Grace yet showed an appalling lack of empathy or sense of anything beyond personal entitlement. Yes, it’s okay to be upset about being used; but no, it’s not okay to ignore other people’s feelings as well. That’s part of what we consider adult… and Ozma screwed the pooch when it came to raising her. Yes, he wanted to avoid catatonia and couldn’t spend a lot of time with her and ended up spoiling her… but at the same time, he insulated her so mcuh from the real world (private schools, making sure she lacked for nothing at all, using influence to get things) that she had no idea how to deal with human beings, or disappointment. Learning to deal with disappointment would’ve probably kept the massacre in 20 from happening; yes, Grace knew they were there but I doubt the baby Vajra have done more than wave tentacles and light lighters (had they carried them) if she’d either stopped singing for a few moments to compose herself (instead of saying she didn’t want to sing anymore) or else had the maturity to work past her immediate ‘the world has ended, the guy who I want doesn’t know I exist’ teenage angst.

    And at the end, she angsted and angsted… and now seems to show no understanding that her actions affect others, and genuinely seems to give not a whit of concern to anyone she knew. All she wants to do is to please Brera-niisan. If it means baptising a planet in blood, even though she had gone there initially to try to secure a peace, so be it. She cannot understand that others may be hurt, and doesn’t seem to care about it either – sociopathy.

    Reply
30. Crusader
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    @JustinStrife
    Then it is merely a matter of opinion. Trust me ego is something ‘aces’ can do without. Ego and pride get people killed it breeds a sense of invincibility that has no place on the field of combat. As long as some one can work in a team they are useful, Isamu is a menace I would have kicked him off planes and made him some General’s bitch. Isamu is the Hollywood hero, and hence to me none too likeable even if it would be cool to pull off the same shit it just doesn’t happen like that.

    If any thing the fact that Isamu waited instead of taking action immediately just goes to show how much a dick he was. Isamu was a buddy fucker, hell as a soldier he was supposed to be putting pride aside for the good of his comrades. Ismau could never do that that is why he is the inferior pilot for letting Guld drop after he dicked around during the test. If you ever get drafted or otherwise given a weapon by you government with standing orders to shoot hostiles you will understand just how much of a douche Isamu appears in my view. Both had baggage, but Guld was trying to control it Isamu indulged it. Isamu treated his career as a play ground such a mindset is dangerous when the shooting is for real.

    I know the price of pride all too well and there is many a man who dies in peace time because he thought his shit did not stink. Sad thing is ego leads to accidents that do not always just affect the one with excessive pride, and truth be told even in peace time good people die because some arrogant ass hat thought he was invincible.

    I do not subscribe to the ideal/myth of the lone maverick hero in my experience such men are a menace and if we are lucky they get discharged otherwise some poor grunt is going to have to die as a result of some guy’s ego. Guld is at least useful, I can’t make you understand that but again one day you might realize how stupid arrogant people can often be. Ego is not something to be proud of or nourish.

    Again I define better in terms of usefulness in a combat situation Isamu remained a liability in combat, making a test pilot may not be kind to the poor engineers he has to work with, but if Isamu dies as a result of faulty engineering then it will not be such a big loss in the grand scheme of things. That Rambo shit Isamu pulled hardly ever happens even Brian Chontosh had to use a flank attack.

    No need to get snarky there though. Fact is Ismau and Guld had ego problems Ismau’s however made him a liability and not an asset in combat. Every one has bad thoughts from time to time its just that in Guld’s case his VF-22 thought it’s pilot meant every bit of it.

    Again because of my experiences I think Isamu is inferior because he cannot function in a team Guld can at least function if it is convenient and let me tell you being a part of a team makes everything convenient. If we are measuring just raw skill as you seem to be doing, yes Isamu is the better pilot, that is good an all but he’s still useless in combat as anything more than the decoy guy. Teamwork, comrade, is the life blood of every successful military.

    Reply
31. mareo
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    @Haesslich

    1 – I guess that that is another way to say immature. If si so, I fully agree. So, she is acting stupid. Maybe we can agree that she looks like one of the most stupid character of Macross ever.

    2 – But saying that Ranka is the Most evil person there… Sorry, I have to disagree on these point. In my opinion is more like selfish, like the self-absorbed Lynn Minmay if we want an example.

    3 – About she be immature in the concert. Nobody exept Grace can know that or Luca maybe can understan it. If anyone on the gov can know that something like that can happen, she can be sedated and locked until neded for the fleet or sorrounded by people whose only work is keep she happy, like Haruhi Suzumiya. Not everyone react mature at that age, in fact another girl maybe just slaped Sheril in the face and shouted some horrible things and when the Vajra attacked maybe she sended more negative feelings and refused to be the bait for lure the Vajra into Island 3 for their extermination. That compared with Ranka reaction is what I call evil. Ranka was and is, just stupid/immature/selfish.

    Reply
32. d3v
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Isamu had to be what he was simply because the plot demanded it, what with Project Supernova and the competition between the YF-19 and YF-21 being the main, non-triangle conflict in Plus. With Frontier being closer to the original SDFM, there’s little need for Alto to be an ace pilot as winning the war hinges less on his skill as an individual pilot.

    Reply
33. Haesslich
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    mareo: I’m saying that she is sociopathic because she has no empathy… and ‘sociopathy’ is something endemic to children below a certain age. Which Ranka is apparently at… and which is a bad thing given that she reaches her age of majority soon. And extreme selfishness is another facet of evil – at least, if one defines good as being able to place the good of society or of the group over personal wants and needs, and the survival of society as being more imprtant than immediate desires.

    And Ranka really doesn’t seem to CARE about other people; she cares about herself, and how other people think of her (sometimes), but doesn’t really seem to care much about them. Look at how she treated Alto all this time; he listens to her, therefore he has to like her. She doesn’t know anything about him (episode 10) and is upset about it… but then does nothing else. Alto’s upset about something? She ignores it. The only time the other person’s feelings impinge upon her consciousness is with regards to how they treat her or how they see her… which is why she was suddenly so upset that Alto might be seeing another girl, even though she’d never told him how she felt and never tried to hang around him the way Sheryl did.

    Ranka was the one who triggered the violent rampage in Ep 20, not ‘some other girl’ – no other girl could’ve done what Ranka did, as they wouldn’t have had the link she had with them. And if Grace isn’t lying to Ranka about her role in the destruction of the last fleet (which she may not be – she did tell Sheryl the truth about those earrings being from her mom – as she seems to enjoy using the truth to whack people over the head), then Ranka’s a fleet-killer twice over, and her concern LAST time wasn’t “oh, I killed a bunch of people” but “Mom! Bro! Where are you? I don’t want to go without you! I’ll be lonely!”

    Incidentally, the fact that Grace uses the truth as a weapon to torture people makes her that much more appealing in my eyes as a villainess. It makes her sexy and smart, since anyone can lie – but it takes someone with exceptional wits to make facts work for her to move people into things she wants to do.

    Reply
34. Halcyon
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    @Crusader
    Look your gender bias is in my view flawed, it’s more about attitude, Shinji and Ranka had a job to do, and they elected not to do it.

    It’s not gender bias. As I said, they both played different roles in their respective anime. One was on the front lines, the other was a support mechanism.

    To say that Alto-hime is a Shinji is wildly off the mark since one has the guts and resolve to fight while the other cowered in fear while wanking off on his comatose comrade.

    I never said he was EXACTLY like Shinji. I said he shared similarities with Shinji that would make him the MACROSS VERSION of Shinji.

    Lastly your endorsement of cowardice is appalling and offensive. It is never justified for a soldier to desert his comrades when a battle is “lost” he fights a rear guard action, he does not have license to save his own ass. The kind of cowardice Ozma showed, which you endorse is the kind that gets units encircled and annihilated. If you fight it is a tactical retreat, if you run your risk every one else’s ass to annihilation because you helped contribute to the rout.

    His squadron had been largely destroyed. What did you really expect him to do? Conduct a suicide attack? That’s not very smart.

    Alto-hime got his promotion to 2LT well before Ozma deserted. I suggest you look at that scene again, when Ozma let off a salvo at Luca, weapons do only one thing kill.

    I already said Alto got recently promoted but there’s a large different between Second Lieutenant and ‘Captain’.

    You cannot deliberately disable an enemy that is moving and trying to evade, it does not happen in the Macross universe often and only Max was able to do it and only after Milia told him exactly where to shoot. The chances of hitting the right spot without killing you opponent is nigh impossible if you think such superb flying is possible then you knowledge of fighters is most lacking. Luca’s evasion technique could not have been taken into account and missiles are incapable of discriminating between an engine block and a fuel tank.

    How long have you been watching anime? You should know by now that ‘real-world’ physics do not apply. Remember Gurren Lagann? What was the theme? Do the Impossible. That applies to ALL anime. It wouldn’t BE anime if it was ‘realistic’.

    This fallacy you subscribe to about accurate fire is a myth shooting at a moving target is hard enough as it is, and if you shoot you sure as hell are aiming to kill and not maim, Ozma is no sniper and you cannot snipe with auto tracking missiles.

    See above.

    Isamu felt that he was better than Guld, and yet if he were really better then no edge that Guld possessed should have mitigated the power of the great Isamu.

    It’s pretty obvious that even with Guld’s technological edge, Isamu and Guld fought evenly on many occassions. It was Isamu’s skill that negated Guld’s tech advantage, thus making him the superior pilot and the “Ace” of the series thereby disproving your point that the Macross series never has an “ace” pilot as their lead.

    The base line for average is the lowly Macross Grunt, and as much as you seem to decry their average quality that does not mean that they suck since the average Luftwaffe Pilot was better skilled than his Soviet/American/French/British counter part in 1942-1943.

    You’re misinterpreting my words. What I said was, for a lead character, Average pilots skills are supposed to grow with experience in the series, not stay average until the very end of the series (which we are at with 1 episodes away). Alto’s skills have not significantly grown beyond the point where he can justify his lead character status.

    Isamu was never the ace of aces as Guld kicked his ass a good number of times and really there was a reason why he was kicked off the frontlines and sent in as a test pilot.

    Isamu didn’t get kicked off the frontlines because of his piloting skills. Isamu got kicked off because of his reckless behavior in combat. And I’ve already proved that Isamu had the better skills.

    @d3v

    Isamu can be considered an exception to the rule as the plot required him to be that level of pilot and Basara will be Basara. But go back to the original series and Hikaru could have died and the combined forces of the SDF-1 and Vrlithwai have still won against Bodolza’s fleet.

    If you have 2 series in a franchise in which the pilot’s skills are better than average and 2 series in which it isn’t. It’s not an “exception to the rule”.

    And if anything, Alto has already proven that he is an above average pilot, having racked up a good number of kills getting himself a promotion in the process.

    Half those kills were attributed to Ranka’s singing pacifying the Vajra.

    Even Ozma acknowledged that Alto had improved when they fought, regardless of whether or not he was out to kill them (seeing as he fired missiles at Luca, he sure as heck seemed to be trying) he commented on Alto’s skill more importantly, didn’t say anything about Alto being able to match him simply because he wasn’t trying hard enough.

    I never said Alto didn’t improve. What I said was Alto improved from being a novice to being an average pilot and for a LEAD CHARACTER that is unacceptable. Lead characters are supposed surpass their support characters ESPECIALLY when you’re at the END OF THE SERIES. That’s what makes them the LEAD. Alto is undeserving of that position by virtue of his mediocrity. He went the entire series going from an amateur to a decent pilot and while that’s okay for someone like Luca or another secondary character that’s not what you would expect from a headliner.

    In case you guys still aren’t getting it. Here’s my point: Average characters are okay for secondary/background characters, not for being a lead character. Lead characters supposed to be exceptional, unique and distinctive which Alto is not.

    Reply
35. d3v
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    @Halcyon
    So I guess you don’t like Hikaru either (and before you burst a blood vessel, episode 27 – Love Drifts Away was meant to be the original ending of SDFM).

    Beside’s Alto has proven himself to be above average, displaying not just good flying, but good dogfighting skills. Early on he was already a match for the Pixies (took out Nene and was able to hold his own against Klan), he crippled Brera on their first dogfight and his move against Temujin was brilliant. Also, even if Ozma wasn’t out to kill him, the way they set the fight up was designed to show that Alto was someone who could give Ozma a run for his money.

    But I guess, kids these days need a pilot to OMGWTFPWN every other other opponent they meet before they are considered above average. Man,, how I long for the days before anime got too comfortable in it’s own tropes and covnentions.

    Reply
36. bakaneko
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    > Frontier had every reason to shoot first ask questions later

    I didn’t say they did or didn’t have the right to shoot first. In fact, they surely did, in the name of self-defense. What I’m saying is that Grace and Leon know that well too, so that all they ever needed to do was to cross the path of the human and the Vajra, and human nature will do the rest. An evil puppet master just need to lit its fuse, taking advantage of human weakness, which you all charge against Ranka solely with zero mercy.

    Even if Grace had absolutely no mean of luring the Vajra to Frontier—which I think is false, because her developing of Sheryl’s voice tells me she know it has some way of reaching them—Grace would bring Sheryl and humanity to the ends of the universe to trip over with the Vajra, even if random walk is her only option.

    > Let’s be honest the bugs have not made peace offerings after their force recon.

    Sure, the Vajra did not want to talk. Heck, do they even have a language that is compatible to a human or a Zentradi? (Come to think of it, they do, but only Grace so far has figured it out.) Just like almost every insects on our own planet, they are all wary creatures: if you get near them, they won’t come shake your hand first. Now, if they happen to think you have one of them (especially if that is their queen), you can be sure no insect species on Earth would try to send you a diplomat first or receive yours in peace. (Bees seem like organized creatures too; honestly, it would be a very interesting research topic to try to decipher their language, just like Grace too. )

    > Ranka is not entirely at fault but the Vajra are hardly peace loving bugs that you claim them to be.

    I don’t claim the Vajra are peace loving llama. By no means, they are far from it. They are indeed wary creatures, but that does not make them any no more evil than your local bees. We stay away from the bees, we don’t try to exterminate them, unless of course we want their honey in their hive.

    > On the one hand, you say they’re completely peaceful and the humans were the aggressors:

    No, they are not *completely* peaceful. Only dead bodies are. Even a meek sheep will kick you if you brush them the wrong way.

    Yes, the humans were the aggressors. Maybe not every individual one of them, but their leaders certainly are and have planned their way and taken any step to lead humanity to find them, exterminate them, use them as weapon, and take over their home planet or turn them into crystal farms.

    My proof? Seriously, have you been keeping tabs on what Leon and Grace been doing??? They predicted everything and certainly have planned it that way. The only time Grace was surprised was the intensity of the Vajra’s response on Ranka’s voice, a pleasant surprise to this evil mastermind.

    > If the Vajra were able to hold onto a grudge for eleven years,

    I don’t think they were capable of holding grudges any more than our own bees can. They just don’t like foreign creatures, but I don’t think they go out of their way to exterminate everything in the universe.

    > If you’re going to present arguments, I would suggest at least bringing up examples and data to back up your ‘facts’.

    Look, I’m not trying to write a mathematical proof here. Neither have I been completely fabricating my own story. It’s an interpretation, one that promotes discussions like the one here. Do I really sound like I’m completely off and incoherent here?

    > Ranka is the most evil person there.

    … I will just take this as a literary hyperbole being used here. Like mareo has said, Ranka is more stupid and weak than anything else.

    > I’m saying that she is sociopathic because she has no empathy

    No empathy? The poor girl can hardly handle the memory that she had blocked it out. And in this episode, Grace used her quilt to zombify her into doing her bidding. If Ranka is a sociopathic, Grace’s words to her would be, “kill all those who hurt you” instead of “go redeem yourself.”

    Reply
37. Halcyon
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    @d3v
    So I guess you don’t like Hikaru either (and before you burst a blood vessel, episode 27 – Love Drifts Away was meant to be the original ending of SDFM).

    To be quite honest, I’ve never seen the original Macross SDF. I was barely able to speak when it aired 25 years ago so I can’t comment on that. In any event, times have changed as have the standard for leads. You certainly can’t compare the standards of 25 years ago to today’s standards. It was a different era for anime.

    Beside’s Alto has proven himself to be above average, displaying not just good flying, but good dogfighting skills. Early on he was already a match for the Pixies (took out Nene and was able to hold his own against Klan), he crippled Brera on their first dogfight and his move against Temujin was brilliant. Also, even if Ozma wasn’t out to kill him, the way they set the fight up was designed to show that Alto was someone who could give Ozma a run for his money.

    How many times has Alto been saved by his support staff? Michel, Ozma, Klan. If it wasn’t for these characters he would’ve been dead a long time ago. What I’m saying is, after 24 episodes, Alto should be able to hold his own. Sadly he cannot and, in my opinion, that is unbefitting of a lead character in a series. Alto simply cannot carry his own weight in a battle. He’s always getting saved by someone else.

    But I guess, kids these days need a pilot to OMGWTFPWN every other other opponent they meet before they are considered above average. Man,, how I long for the days before anime got too comfortable in it’s own tropes and covnentions.

    He doesn’t need to WTFPWN every opponent but if at the END of the series you’re still being babysat by your support there’s something seriously wrong there. Like I’ve been saying all along lead characters are supposed to grow into maturity and independence, Alto is still relying on other people for his glaring deficiencies. Emotionally he’s dependent on Sheryl, Militarily, he’s dependent on Klan. When is Alto going to actually man up and do things for himself? We’re already at the LAST episode and his character really hasn’t grown much since Episode 1. He’s gotten better at piloting but he still doesn’t show any of the leadership qualities that define a lead character in an action/drama series. I’m not saying Alto’s a bad character, I’m saying he’s not fit to be the LEAD character. Ozma, on the other hand, has what it takes to be the lead.

    Reply
38. d3v
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    @Halcyon
    Even back then, Hikaru was a breath of fresh air from the usual hot-blooded pilot who dueled his rival at the very end (pioneered in super-robot shows and eventually adopted by Gundam). The only difference between the two is that Alto’s a bit more temperamental compared to the eternal starry-eyed dreamer Hikaru.

    Also, Alto’s been doing fine since after episode 9. He carried himself pretty well against Temujin and in the proceeding Vajra attack and has made nary a misstep post promotion. The only times things have turned against his favour involved Brera who is clearly a better pilot. However, beating Brera is not his reason for flying (which is in a way, Frontier’s response to the usual mecha anime rival dynamic). Protecting the Frontier is and that end is better served by fulfilling his mission/duty and not simply concentrating on a single opponent.

    Reply
39. Haesslich
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Let’s deal with this in order of ‘posts that make sense’.

    Halcyon: Given that the context being argued here is ‘within Macross shows’, it makes no sense to bring in outside shows or to ignore previous series in Macross to argue that ‘the main character has to be the best’. But, to address your posts, I will note one thing – Hikaru was a flawed character throughout the whole run. He waffled like Alto did, except at least he confessed his feelings to one of the girls (Minmei) who promptly ignored them while his relationship with Misa was predicated on a series of shared understandings which weren’t spoken until the end, as well as circumstances conspiring to throw them together. Hikaru was unlike most pilots in the super robot series which were popular when the Real Robot shows came out; he kept getting shot down (he lost at least three mecha completely throughout the course of the series) and was by no means the best pilot. What he was, however, was a hard worker and the most senior surviving pilot by dint of when he joined as well as his pattern of promotions and commendations. He had to get bailed out several times by Focker and then Jenius, and ended up pining after a girl who barely realized he existed throughout the course of the show only to hook up with Misa at the end because she’d always been closer to him than Minmei had in an emotional sense, and they had a firmer basis for a relationship… and even then, Minmei ended up becoming a close friend to both of them, which is why she left with them aboard Megaroad-01.

    And Alto hasn’t been babysat at the end – yes, he’s needed the occasional save, but he’s held his own in various situations; he killed Temujin, fought his way free of Gallia-4 and then rearmed to charge in with the Armored Pack in episode 14, and saved Luca’s life on several occasions including Episode 22. However, he has been unable to beat Brera or even Ozma because both of them are still the better pilot – and unlike Gundam, the main protagonist doesn’t need to be the best pilot as the show has been about love stories set against the backdrop of conflict. And unlike Gundam, the hero is never really ‘one pilot against the universe’ – they usually have a squadron of which he’s a member. Now as a member of the triangle, I too consider him a bit of a failure – at least Hikaru said who he liked to himself and to others, whereas Alto did his best to ignore the girls’ feelings.

    And as I noted earlier, Guld appears to be the better pilot in terms of skills although Isamu was perhaps the superior instinctive pilot; he had combat sense and an ability to push his machine to its limits which is a characteristic of those ‘natural pilots’ which get talked about in stories about fighter planes – they have superb reflexes and flying sense, and the ability to instinctively perform maneuvers which stress the systems they use to the limit. This doesn’t mean that they’re PRECISE pilots of the type who would be doing team aerobatics like the USAF’s Blue Angels, but that they often are the ones who don’t think about what they’re doing… which is why they tend to do very well one-on-one since they’re pushing the envelope with regards to what is considered possible with a plane.

    Bakaneko: Do I really sound like I’m completely off and incoherent here?

    The joys of quoting out of context.

    But to address your points – I will note that you cut out the ‘complete sociopathy is considered evil according to Christian mores and values’ part of my earlier statement, which was the qualifier to that part you took by itself to try to cast me as a callous bastard. While I -am- a callous bastard, I also try to be one who weighs every factor.

    Just because Grace was trying to find a way to link with them doesn’t mean she had a way to communicate OR track them – since if she had, luring them to Frontier at that time when she didn’t have a working communicator/controller would mean that she ran the risk of dying and being permanently dead since her Cylon Resurrection Ship (the Dulfim and its equipment) wasn’t in range and she didn’t have any fold-comm capability at the time (which needed more Vajra-parts, and LAI only got prototypes going just before Episode 7). She did NOT plan Frontier’s course, and had no way to control it. Leon had no way to control that course, which was initially planned by NUNS headquarters on Earth. Nor did they know where the Vajra were exactly, since it took all that effort to follow Ranka in order to find their home planet. They knew the Vajra, as the Protodevlin, were in the direction of the galactic center but that was it. And space is big – mindboggling big, as a certain writer once wrote. The chances of random-walking into the Vajra were incredibly low unless they were following the exact same course the 117th Fleet did… and this did not appear to be the case, else they would’ve run into the Vajra sooner than they did. Remember that the 117th and the Global made first contact with the Vajra nineteen years ago, and their last major article was published in 2043 – 16 years before Frontier encountered them. President Glass and company knew about the Vajra, but did not expect to encounter them – as if they had adjusted their course to intentionally avoid known Vajra space.

    This means that humans were avoiding the Vajra, with the possible exception of Grace’s cartel… and yet the Vajra sought out Frontier first. They sought them out and attacked first, like they were killer bees instantly going on the warpath as soon as they encountered something alien. On the one hand, you talk about them following a beacon to rescue Ranka, who they had no apparent clue about until they saw her on Frontier in the first episode… but then you say humans deliberately sought them out? Maybe you need to decide what your position is first, before you try to defend it. At this point, the humans appeared to be avoiding the Vajra and yet were hunted down and attacked, which is hardly self-defense.

    And for the record, Grace was the one predicting how things went once the Vajra started attacking Frontier. Leon didn’t seem to be expecting an attack so soon, or even that one was coming; all he did was take advantage of the situation once it started. Grace was planning to find the Vajra again, but without someone like Ranka her plans to link her implants to their network was useless… which meant that seeking them out was a losing proposition, as she had no way to combat OR control them, much less to tie into their FTL network which was her original goal.

    As for sociopathy, did you ignore previous episodes? It’s always been “Me, me, me” with Ranka as far as feelings went, or considering things. She was willing to take fame, but not willing to pay the price involved with it – if I take money for being a performer, then I have a duty to perform. If my friend’s friend dies horribly in front of me, then I shouldn’t ignore their feelings when I ask them something unless I’m a complete jerk who doesn’t give a damn about them. If I like someone and am upset that I don’t know much about their past, then I shouldn’t just be sitting back waiting for them to come to me to tell them about their history since I haven’t even told them I’m interested.

    And here she’s doing what her nii-san wants, even if it’s Grace remote-slaving Brera. Because she can please Brera (which in turn makes her feel good, since she’s pleasing someone important to her), she goes along with it. Hell, even in episode 5 she was going “Why don’t you listen to me?” when Ozma was going off on her for getting suspended from her private school which he had to pull strings to get her into, and then later said as much to Mikhail when he finally caught up with her. She didn’t seem to care about the families of the dead, or about the dead in Ep 22, didn’t care about Alto’s feelings about the dead Mikhail when she asked him to run off with her to return Ai-kun the Vajra to his home, and didn’t even seem willing to apologize for any hurt feelings Alto may have had after Brera-niisan kicked Alto’s butt after he refused in a violent fashion. She just said ‘I loved you, bye-bye’. All of it was about her – even her guilt wasn’t about killing millions so much as ‘Mama! I killed Mama!’; remember what she said in her flashback and how she was acting here. She’s making amends for killing her Mom, not for killing a thousand or so others in the fleet.

    Besides, her stated goal of trying to establish a peace (which would be for others) ended up being dropped by the wayside as soon as her brother asked her to stop the enemy… because things done for others were much, much less important.

    Reply
40. Halcyon
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    @Haesslich

    Given that the context being argued here is ‘within Macross shows’, it makes no sense to bring in outside shows or to ignore previous series in Macross to argue that ‘the main character has to be the best’.

    Firstly, What outside show did I bring in?
    Secondly, I can’t argue for or against a show I haven’t seen. That’s ignorance that I will not be party to.
    Thirdly, I specifically said there were 2 Macross shows that had Average Pilots (SDF, Fronter) and 2 Macross shows that had “Aces” (7, Plus).

    I’m not going to quote the whole “Hikaru” post because it’s beating a dead horse.
    As I’ve already said, that was 25 years ago. It was a very, very, very, different era. Times have changed since then so have the standards and expectations for lead characters. Lead characters have to be judged by today’s standards, not yesteryears. =P

    And Alto hasn’t been babysat at the end – yes, he’s needed the occasional save, but he’s held his own in various situations; he killed Temujin, fought his way free of Gallia-4 and then rearmed to charge in with the Armored Pack in episode 14, and saved Luca’s life on several occasions including Episode 22.

    The occassional save? He gets saved almost every 3-4 episodes. Which is fine, if you’re a side character. But for the main character to be so dependent on his support for his own survival is just laughable.

    However, he has been unable to beat Brera or even Ozma because both of them are still the better pilot – and unlike Gundam, the main protagonist doesn’t need to be the best pilot as the show has been about love stories set against the backdrop of conflict. And unlike Gundam, the hero is never really ‘one pilot against the universe’ – they usually have a squadron of which he’s a member. Now as a member of the triangle, I too consider him a bit of a failure – at least Hikaru said who he liked to himself and to others, whereas Alto did his best to ignore the girls’ feelings.

    Why would you even reference Gundam in a discussion about Macross? Where’s the relevance? They’re 2 different shows with 2 different set ups.

    And as I noted earlier, Guld appears to be the better pilot in terms of skills although Isamu was perhaps the superior instinctive pilot; he had combat sense and an ability to push his machine to its limits which is a characteristic of those ‘natural pilots’ which get talked about in stories about fighter planes – they have superb reflexes and flying sense, and the ability to instinctively perform maneuvers which stress the systems they use to the limit. This doesn’t mean that they’re PRECISE pilots of the type who would be doing team aerobatics like the USAF’s Blue Angels, but that they often are the ones who don’t think about what they’re doing… which is why they tend to do very well one-on-one since they’re pushing the envelope with regards to what is considered possible with a plane.

    You said Guld was the better pilot because of his performance against the Ghost… which he eventually died for. The only way Guld was even able to MATCH the Ghost was because he removed the mental safeguards in his YF-21. In essence, he had to commit a suicide attack to win. Suicide attacks do not make a superior pilot.

    My standard for picking Isamu as the better pilot is simple. Guld had a better machine that responded directly to his thoughts and Isamu was still able to fight evenly against him. How do you account for that? When 1 pilot has a clear technological advantage and the other pilot can still keep up, what’s the determining factor? Skill. Pure Skill.

    In comparable machines, Isamu would’ve smoked Guld.

    Reply
41. Crusader
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    @Halcyon
    Hikaru never surpasses Max, and Shin never surpassed Fokker. This is not a super robot series and to treat it as your typical anime fare is not going to work. In this regard Macross is more faithful to what happens in an actual military no matter how good you are you will need support there are no lone heroes, its is much more team oriented. Right now i think that since 3 out of 5 Macross leads were not the hot shit of their series makes me take the view that Isamu and Basara were exceptions. Just like how Basara had guitar controls, hot shots who dominate the field are not the norm (I call this an exception) account for 2/5s of the entire franchise so far. It was always to expected since Frontier is more int he vein of SDF Macross and not Plus and sure as hell not Macross 7. Things may have changed but this was meant to be a celebration of a series that is now 25 years old, it was expected that many things would have stayed the same.

    I do not ask that Ozma die in a suicide attempt, but since guns were still going off in the back ground that there were people who still could be saved. A rearguard action allows for an orderly retreat that did not happen with the 117th Fleet they were massacred and only a handful survived. Ozma still had ammo he had no orders or the right to ditch when there were still people who could have been saved. Ozma was visibly scared and his spoiling of Ranka points towards a deeper guilt than just having failed to save them after giving his all. Ozma wanted to atone for failing to stay and fight. It was his duty to fight until he could fight no more and if necessary die so that others might live, he signed up for NUNS he was duty bound to if the need arose to die. A lot of people died and yet he lives as the only known pilot to have fought in that conflict. 11 years ago Ozma was a rookie the most likely way for him to have survived while the veterans of NUNS did not was for him to flee. Since it was a massacre with a staggering death toll and no other military personnel survived, one can only conclude that as a rookie Ozma did flee from the field before the massacre was over as if it had been over Ozma would have been hunted down by bugs who could actually fold and fold faster.

    Ozma is not fit to lead he plays his game and hardly did anything for his vic other than ride them around. regardless of whether you deem Alto-hime worthy of leading is moot, he’s kept his vic alive and isn’t going out of his way to belittle them like Ozma. Their leadership styles differ not every leader has to be bombastic and Ozma could not be the lead because he only has a limited set of problems. Unless of course you wanted a love triangle with Cathy and Bobby.

    The emphasis of skill as being the defining traits of a leader is flawed. Just because Ozma is a skilled pilot does not make him a good leader. His original vic left him because he never could communicate with them, he never mentored them he just gave orders, Mikhail was looking out for his wingmen while Ozma was too busy to care. By your logic Wilder is supposed to be the most kick ass character in the series, but he is definitely not, that honor belongs to Bobby. Ozma was not in the business of leading a vic he was in the business of playing spy which resulted in his inability to convince his men to follow his lead. Ozma is a man , but not an adult, he’s not much of leader either if he doesn’t even know a damn thing about the men under his command.

    I prefer the more combined arms nature of this series rather than the kind of combat that goes on in Code Geass. It is a breath of fresh air for a genre where the main protagonist is always the best in the end. Kawamori marches to the beat of his own drum, and isn’t afraid to defy convention and troll outright. Given how this was to be the celebration of the 25th anniversary of SDF Macross only those such as yourself who never watched it or Robotech expected anything different.

    To be fair Klan has been saved by Alto as well while you may decry it it is nothing to be ashamed about or something worth raging over its called camaraderie. You forget that Alto killed the big bad bug in episode 14 on his own, Brera only preempted the rescue, but that kill belonged to Alto-hime who left Ozma in the dust. To say that Alto-hime has not improved is a matter of interpretation, just like how we can argue if a glass is half full or half empty.

    Even in the recap the Galaxy cabal felt that Alto’s role would not be that great in the grand scheme of things, but while a man like Patton would get his name in the books, there is no denying that the 3rd Army made it all happen. Alto-hime only had to be rescued when he ran afoul of Brera who has beaten every one, only Ozma has his pride intact because they never met in a dog fight.

    Alto-hime is now a 1LT not a captain, but you refer to a flight leader as such regardless of rank. Just like how a destroyer commander might well be a Commander, he is still referred to as “captain” by his crew. Alto did not jump two ranks he is only one rank higher than his vic (again for a chain of command to work there has to be a clearly defined superior and subordinate relationship). Promotion is not always based on skill it also based on experience, and levels of responsibilities. Alto is more experienced that both members of his vic and has to be responsible for them.

    There is nothing wrong with fighting as a combined arms force Alto was piloting an inferior machine against a superior pilot in the case of Brera and Ozma. Klan did not fare much better either against Brera. Alto was never going to catch up to Ozma, not for a few years. Brera just beats everyone because he is a cyborg with the better machine. Against bugs Alto-hime comes off more ore less equally with Klein. One does not charge an HMG nest on his own if he intends to live, that same logic applies here since super robot physics are not in force for this series. Fighting as a team means that alto-hime is at least thinking somewhat tactically that is a significant improvement to his reckless charging in his first sorties. Relying on Mikhail was not a sign of weakness it was an acceptance that if Alto was to succeed he could not do it on his own and needed help. Its not about having to fight harder, but about fighting smarter. Now that Alto and Klan are in an adhoc team they can do more than if they were isolated and on their own. Rugged individualism has no place in conventional combat hence why even infantry are paired up and fighting as a fire team is emphasized over fighting as an individual. To say that Macross cannot have elements of real military structure is to betray the spirit of the original SDF Macross, if this is to be a celebration of that venerated series it stands to reason that many elements of SDF Macross would remain intact rather than have Macross Frontier be the new Gurren Lagan.

    No real ace made it to that level by being a hard charging moron, they got there because they had a good wingman to watch his six as he learned the ropes. That still applies in Macross, if you are alone you are much more vulnerable and can be killed more easily.

    @bakaneko
    Grace understood the possibilities in a vague manner, the reason why she was touring Sheryl around and making 9 fairies was because she was still experimenting to create a little queen. She was more focused on collecting data for another experiment since Sheryl was not guaranteed to be a success. In the first episode grace was still gathering data. As a scientist in training I know how great the disparity between theory and practice can be. Grace spent 11 years making failed experiments to gather more data and improve her fairies she did not lay down plans for using Frontier as anything more than a disposable testing facility if Sheryl was partially successful.

    Grace did not plan on having Frontier trashed in episode 20. You might suspect grace based on her present situation, but there is no definitive proof that Grace was behind the first attack since Kawamori has given us liberal amounts of evidence that Grace was snooping around and gathering data to better discern possible actions that Frontier was going to take.

    What Grace and Leon are doing was after they discovered Ranka’s powers, before that Grace was just there to test out Sheryl, and Leon was scheming to marry Cathy and become the next President of Frontier. After they both discovered that Ranka had a connection with the Vajra did they alter their plans and set them in motion. Ranka represented an opportunity for power beyond their imaginations and both sought to seize it. The Vajra are not friendly to either Grace or Leon it makes no sense for them to have plotted the events of episode 20.

    To say that this was all a part of Grace and Leon’s plans from the start is false, neither of them anticipated Ranka, and neither of them could control the damage that the Vajra wrought. They did not plan for all of this to happen since episode 1, they did start making grander plans once they found Ranka and unlocked the secrets of fold quartz. everything is as you say post the discovery of and confirmation of Ranka’s powers, but up until then before Ranka made it big neither Grace nor Leon were seriously considering becoming master of the universe in the beginning.

    What I think you are wrong on is the matter of at what point Grace and Leon started their plans for the Vajra farm. You seem to think it was from the outset, i say they were not even considering it seriously until the found Ranka. Ranka was the key Grace knew she wanted to be master of the universe, but only after she unlocked the secrets of fold quartz and discovered Ranka did she put her plans for galactic conquest into motion. Grace had plans but she was not planning the early Vajra attacks because she did not have the means to do it even if she had a theory on how it could be possible.

    The Vajra are not merely bees, at mosst bees are an annoyance and a danger to those who are allergic, but bees do not actively set out to kill humans who have not done something to them. If the Vajra are merely animals their behavior borders on predatory (as they have stalked Frontier and have not allowed it to escape) and if we are their prey then there is no possibility for negotiations as deer do not negotiate with wolves. Either the Vajra a beasts that actively seek out and destroy humans and zentrans as threats/prey or they have already declared war in their own way. The first attack was not provoked and there is no indication or admission by Grace that it was. Frontier was not brushing the Vajra the wrong way the Vajra blew up Lima-8 with hostile and belligerent intentions the Vajra provoked frontier into a response Frontier did nothing to the bugs prior to that point.

    @Haesslich
    At least Alto-hime was able to confess in a rather metaphoric and confusing way. I don’t think Alto ever felt any romantic of physical attraction to Ranka, and to be fair Sheryl seemed to be toying with him with her first real kiss (in episode 10). I don’t think Alto was actively trying to deceive Sheryl, but rather hime was unsure if he really was more than just a passing infatuation for her. It was only after Sheryl started getting a bit more serious and into trouble that we saw his hesitation crack ever so slightly. Given how Alto got beat down and humiliated with nary a word of concern by Ranka I would not blame him for operating under the assumption that Ranka had moved on or that her feelings were only those of infatuation. I suspect that Alto was largely ignoring Ranka’s feelings thinking that they would simply pass and there was no need to reject her, not since Brera showed up any way. Ranka was only ever at best, a friend, and one that was treated like a little sister and a child rather than a woman.

    Sheryl was more of a problem since she was hesitating as well. Alto cared, he just never had the right words to express it, heck even now he has to use flying in a confession. Sheryl seems to have misinterpreted Alto’s actions as those of pity rather than genuine affection. Hell if Alto is willing to go back on his dogged determination to assert his masculinity by wearing he earring and tossing aside pride to make sure she’s okay, he certainly sees her more than a friend. Not even Luca and Mikhail had free license to nail him for his Kabuki prowess. Only now did Alto just toss that all aside since it doesn’t matter if Sheryl was only playing. He cared and tried to say it, but still lacks the proper words.

    Reply
42. bakaneko
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    > The first attack was not provoked and there is no indication or admission by Grace that it was.

    Alright, I can buy into your idea that Grace did not start the fight in episode one. However, the “Vajra not provoked” part is questionable. They were most likely there because they picked up the Ranka beacon. Remember, even as early as ten years ago, her singing voice could already be heard by the Vajra. Perhaps not too long ago right before episode one, Nyan Nyan Noodle Shop’s tune was so hard to get out of her head like a Hamasaki song that Ranka started to sing again in the shower. (loli singing in the shower calling big bad monsters, fanart plz.)

    So far, the only persons in the show promoting the idea of Vajra’s bent on massacring the human race are Leon and Bilrer, and we should all be wary of the words of those who have much ulterior motives.

    Reply
43. LurkerJay
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    bakaneko: waiiiiit… you’re trying to say that the Vajra are trying to kill the humans because of Nyan Nyan?!

    Reply
44. LR
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    LOL… The captions are gold…

    Reply
45. mareo
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    @Haesslich

    Sadly Im not advancing at all with common words, so I must to educate miself and discuse these in the psychological field.

    Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:

    Psychopathy
    Antisocial Personality Disorder
    Dissocial Personality Disorder

    1 – The Psychopath is defined by a “psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses” and the inability to learn from past mistakes.

    2 – Antisocial Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by persistent disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. “Deceit and manipulation are central features of this disorder.”

    3 – Specifically, the Dissocial Personality Disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

    1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
    2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
    3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
    4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
    5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
    6. Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
    7. Persistent irritability.

    The criteria specifically rule out Conduct disorders. Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.

    Confusion in terminology

    Although conceptually the antisocial, dissocial, and sociopathic personality disorders are synonymous with psychopathy, operationally the diagnostic criteria for these disorders are definitely distinct. They are not equivalent disorders. The largest difference is the emphasis on delinquent and criminal behaviors found in the DSM-IV-TR’s version, the antisocial personality disorder. The dissocial personality disorder pays more attention to the affective, interpersonal and behavioral components not present in DSM-IV-R’s criteria.

    The criteria for antisocial personality disorder are largely based on observable behaviors while the ICD criteria for dissocial personality disorder focus more on the affective and interpersonal deficits. However, the ICD criteria do not represent the broad personality and behavioral factors of psychopathy.

    The blurring of distinctions between these diagnostic categories and psychopathy have caused diagnosis confusion. For the mental health and criminal justice system, the distinction between psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder is of considerable importance. Further, the term “psychopathic” is no longer used in the United Kingdom as it is seen as having pejorative connotations.

    I think that your opinion looks closer to the option 3 or Dissocial Personality Disorder. Let’s analize if Ranka meet the criteria.

    1. I have doubts about your opinion on these, when Sheril cried in the concert of chapter 7 (12:40), Ranka dont ignored Sheril feelings, in fact she was simpatetic and transmited these feeling with the vajra stomach to the fold quartz earring. People can smile and lie, but I think that the feeling of these emotions cant be faked, thats empathy.

    2. I cant call it flagrant, extreme and persistent attitude of irresponsibility. For someone fitting these description must to be constant complaining and refusal . I think that in general she was cooperative and only failed under big pressure and stress. Ie. Chapter 16 (14:55), aboard of a Mecha fliying into battle for sing, Ozma asked to she if she was wanted that, we know that all she need to say is no and Ozma is so thick like deserting with Ranka in a fighter, but she agreed to sing even risking the life.

    3. Being she an orphan teenager, I cant measure enduring relations without we agree some kind of aceptable parameters. Alto is the first, I dont think that is fair measure based on the first only.

    4. Can be on frustation, but not aggressive behavior.

    5. If she cant felt guilty, I dont understand why she as become a doll, playing like a pupet in the hands of Grace. The experience point is debatable, some people learn faster than others.

    6. I dont remeber she being prone to blame others, in fact she keep saying _Is my fault I killed them._

    7. I dont think that most of the time Ranka show abnormal or excessive sensitivity to stimuli.

    With all the respect and seriousness to your theory of Ranka being affected by Dissocial Personality Disorder. I came to the conclusion that she present some of the Symptoms under extreme conditions. But dont fill all the criteria and in normal conditions she looks no better or worst than the average girl of that age. Is my personal and no-profesional opinion that until new evidende is presented about the character showing others Symptoms that fitt the rest of the criteria for be recognized like afected by DPS, I cant say that I am convinced that Ranka is a Sociopathy or better said a person affected by Dissocial personality disorder.

    OMG… everyone, I am very sorry for the long post.

    Reply
46. grss1982
    Posted September 23, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    All this talk about Alto as a lead character made me suddenly think that what if Shoji Kawamori wanted to defy anime conventions about lead characters always being the best at whatever they do.

    Reply
47. d3v
    Posted September 24, 2008 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    @grss1982
    I’m guessing it’s more of the Alto being a slightly more hot headed Hikaru analogue – with Hikaru himself being made that way as part of the original SDFMs production team focusing on making the original less of a mecha show and more of a romance that just happened to be set in a war that involved mecha.

    Reply
48. grss1982
    Posted September 24, 2008 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    @d3v: An interesting observation.

    @Crusader & Everyone else:

    Preview pics for episode 25 have appeared.

    It’s being discussed over MW.

    Link: http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=27345&st=760

    NOTE: Please Don’t Open if you don’t wanna be spoiled.

    Reply
49. Halcyon
    Posted September 24, 2008 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    @Crusader

    Hikaru never surpasses Max, and Shin never surpassed Fokker. This is not a super robot series and to treat it as your typical anime fare is not going to work.

    Doesn’t have to be a Super Robot anime for the character to actually be independent and able to hold his own without having his hand held in battle.

    I do not ask that Ozma die in a suicide attempt, but since guns were still going off in the back ground that there were people who still could be saved.

    Did you forget that he did save someone? How many people do you think could’ve fit inside his cockpit? Ozma did what the best he could considering the circumstances.

    Since it was a massacre with a staggering death toll and no other military personnel survived, one can only conclude that as a rookie Ozma did flee from the field before the massacre was over as if it had been over Ozma would have been hunted down by bugs who could actually fold and fold faster.

    His “flight” as you refer to it, is not confirmed. What is shown in the episode is Ozma turning his face away from the firefight, not turning his Valkyrie away. The rest of your position is based solely on an assumption from a 7 second clip.

    Their leadership styles differ not every leader has to be bombastic and Ozma could not be the lead because he only has a limited set of problems. Unless of course you wanted a love triangle with Cathy and Bobby.

    Alto has no leadership style… that’s the point. And I’d rather have a love triangle with Cathy and Grace :3

    The emphasis of skill as being the defining traits of a leader is flawed. Just because Ozma is a skilled pilot does not make him a good leader. His original vic left him because he never could communicate with them, he never mentored them he just gave orders, Mikhail was looking out for his wingmen while Ozma was too busy to care. By your logic Wilder is supposed to be the most kick ass character in the series, but he is definitely not, that honor belongs to Bobby. Ozma was not in the business of leading a vic he was in the business of playing spy which resulted in his inability to convince his men to follow his lead. Ozma is a man , but not an adult, he’s not much of leader either if he doesn’t even know a damn thing about the men under his command.

    I never said skill was the sole determinant. You guys hopped on that comment and ran with it. I used skill as an example. I specifically said Alto has zero motivation for himself and is completely reliant on others for his decision-making, I then used skill as an example of why Alto is unbefitting of a lead role. Mainly because his character, over 24 episodes, has largely been stagnant. You, yourself, have made similar criticism a few posts back about Alto still being indecisive despite how far in we are.

    To be fair Klan has been saved by Alto as well while you may decry it it is nothing to be ashamed about or something worth raging over its called camaraderie. You forget that Alto killed the big bad bug in episode 14 on his own, Brera only preempted the rescue, but that kill belonged to Alto-hime who left Ozma in the dust. To say that Alto-hime has not improved is a matter of interpretation, just like how we can argue if a glass is half full or half empty.

    You also forget that Brera’s intervention is probably what saved Alto from being crushed a few times.

    My point is not that Alto needs to be saved. It’s that he STILL relies on everyone else as a crutch AT THE END OF THE SERIES. That’s not growth. That’s stagnation.

    No real ace made it to that level by being a hard charging moron, they got there because they had a good wingman to watch his six as he learned the ropes. That still applies in Macross, if you are alone you are much more vulnerable and can be killed more easily.

    This isn’t reality. This is anime. If it was reality, in a melee dog fight against superior numbers Alto and the Macross Fleet would’ve been dead by now.

    Reply
50. Crusader
    Posted September 24, 2008 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    @grss1982
    Sweet.

    @Halcyon
    You seem to be demanding a Rambo in series where there is a lot of inter dependence. I don’t think Alto-hime needs to be a Rambo, I don’t think there is something wrong with not being the best. I do not think that Macross Frontier is what you want in a mecha anime and if you want individual heroics you certainly did start watching a franchise for which boasted a 2/5s chance of having your desired type of lead. To quote Patton who is more manly than any otaku will ever be, “An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse shit. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don’t know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about fucking!” I think Kawamori has leaned more towards the same kind of practical aspects of combat than the Hollywood stuff you prefer. You can cry stagnant all you want, but Kawamori doesn’t seem to think its a problem, neither do I.

    Ozma had no fold pack and out of a fleet of hundreds of thousands barely a handful survived with only one known to be military. We don’t know if Ozma was actully the one who saved Ranka for all we know they met in the quarantine camp and decided to take her in there. My point is that either Ozma was so kick ass rookie 11 years ago that he was a sole survivor, or that he had to have done something to avoid the slaughter since there was no fold pack available to fold out. I do not think Ozma was that kick ass 11 years ago, as the quintessential sole survivor with a guilt complex big enough to devote his entire existence to Ranka, I do not think that it was mere survivor’s guilt that drove Ozma to spoil Ranka silly and dump Cathy the first time. In that seven seconds we did see Ozma go in the opposite direction of the sinking vessel and not zooming into to scatter it’s assailants.

    Besides not all anime has to be a big pile of bullshit and chips, perhaps Frontier was never meant for you. So maybe Geass really is the kind of mecha series you prefer given how you have expressed disdain for old conventions and have an affinity for the new. I think that it is nice that there are limits to Alto-hime’s combat ability he’s not super, nor was he ever meant to be perfect or in any way capable of challenging the top aces in a all out brawl.

    You call it a need to be saved I call it an excellent example of team work that is far too lacking these days. Heck I like 8th MS Team so I am much more forgiving of soldiers saving eachother’s asses than uber mensch charging into the fray with a super suit with hax. In love Alto was being stagnant largely because the love triangle called for it since neither Ranka nor Sheryl was treating Alto like shit. In combat I see some enough improvement in Alto to say that he has not been stagnant and I will never associate having some one watching your six as a sign of weakness.

    It was not unprecedented though it is a throw back to a bygone age. I like the feel of it being a bit retro, but you want something modern. I doubt you can enjoy it as much as old Macross vets because you have elected to never go back and have a predisposition to the current trend of SEED pilots.

    As for your Grace doujins I suggest you make your own right now Leon seems to be getting more love fan art wise than Grace. In the end though Alto is not your kind of lead and will never be. The best you can do is send Kawamori a plea to give you your kind of hero, or write a fanfic to make it better. I appreciate the small aspects of realism, you don’t have to so instead of Macross Frontier, I suggest that until the next super robot series that you re-watch Gurren Lagan, at least you will be happy, at least until Gundam 00 starts and you have have your dear Setsuna pwn every one and I can have my Prince Ali return to rape your hero and his pitiful friends until the final battle.

    Reply