Gundam 00 S2 – 12: Louise Dumps Saji for Good, plus Louise Appreciation

62 Comments

1. Jarmel
   Posted December 28, 2008 at 3:36 am | Permalink

   @Crusader
   I still would say that it’s closer in design to a DEW than the railguns not just due to the size or ammunition. MM directs solar(or electricity but more likely solar) energy through a particular point and fires it downward. Certain DEW are similar in design but obviously nowhere near that size. The type of damage is also different too. Something like the Dora obviously causes damage through the shell and its explosive power while MM uses the energy itself to destroy things, in a way MM is a purer form of a gun, it cuts out all the unnecessary crap such as the bullet(which is mostly kinetic energy) or gunpowder. It’s fine to take out Seel but eliminating the whole capital city? The Federation could have also “test fired” MM nearby as a show of force and a way of saying if you want to go to war we will use it on the city. Seel has no way of reaching the satellite and Kataron is getting pwned as it is so I doubt they could have done anything either. The only people that might have gotten involved earlier would have been CB but they would have been involved one way or another. To win without fighting is best. There were other methods available to them yet we saw them take the quickest route which resulted in alot of civilians in Seel who were just casually living their lives. Richieria had no clue that the Federation had used MM or had anything like that. They probably thought there was no danger for the refugees to be near the base as they hadn’t declared war with the Federation, not to mention we don’t even know how long the refugees were there.
   Is that not another form of terrorism, just destroying a city to set an example?
   True we don’t know the condition of Kataron’s space fleet or when they got it up there. However we are talking about dozens and dozens of ships, large scale materials had to have been sent up to build it. Look how much effort it is to build one shuttle. I doubt that the Federation would not notice if dozens of their ships just turned up missing in space.

   Well part of it wasn’t even antisemitism(other groups such as blacks, gypsies, and Jehova Witnesses were killed) but rather the coldbloodedness and organization of the mass murders. The world had never seen anything like this before and it shocked and scared the crap out of them. A large part of the Nuremberg trials was asking people like Goring and Kaltenbrunner why didn’t they stop the mass murders and concentration camps.

   Just because one group of the population okays it doesn’t mean it is acceptable. A court system tries to standardize local laws(thats partly why the ICJ only takes cases like genocide otherwise things get complicated) based on what people deem acceptable at the time. All those things you mentioned are condemned in most of the world, most of the world recognizes Hamas as a terrorist organization, the infamous Japanese whore houses during WW2 are very severely criticized, and slavery is for the most part extremely frowned upon. Part of the reason people get away with things like that is because nobody stops them. Look at the statement, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. If we based our laws around that idea, we would be giving every terrorist a Medal of Freedom(I think a terrorist is classified under most circumstances as a civilian, otherwise they would be guerilla fighters).

   Well he was going to do an “armed intervention” on them. This would have meant destroying both sides as they did previously. However Ali kinda screwed things up and things just went from there.

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2. Crusader
   Posted December 28, 2008 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

   @Jarmel
   As weapons system the concept is similar thought he mechanisms differ, MM is still limited by its use of the orbital rail to move around. Given how Sergei and the Feddie regulars presumed that the whole region would go to war, what proof do we have otherwise that Richeria decided not to go to war? Lindt isn’t stupid and he would not target something with MM if it did not have some strategic value at the time. In order for you to be right about Richieria being a neutral state we have to believe that Sergei is a lair, and Lindt is a dumb ass. Neither seems to be true, Sergei is an honest man, and Lindt, while conventional, is not a dumbass.

   Only a fool would presume that a military installation is less of a target, if anything it has a permanent target sign on it. For an unstable region its pretty dumb to co-locate a base and a refugee camp. How you can justify this is beyond me, but by putting the two together the Richierians put them in the line of fire whether they intended to or not, you do not plan your defense around what you think the enemy can do, but rather what they would do. Even if there was a test firing of MM CB would have gotten wind of it earlier and taken it out without it ever firing a shot in anger, moreover supposing Seel isn’t dumb they simply could have used protracted negotiations in the mean time (giving CB more time) and surrounded their capital with more refugees and dispersed their forces. Again there is no guarantee a demonstration would bring forth an unconditional surrender, Hiroshima alone did not force the Japanese into it, the surrender only came after Nagasaki.

   The only difference between Germany and the rest of the West was that they made the process coldly efficient. We were little better than they were, we killed treated those same groups just as badly in an unorganized rarely reported manner. Again up until then there was no horror until the Allies happened upon, we also had the USSR on our side I can scarcely say the Allies were completely in the moral right on the matter.

   Indeed there are words of condemnation now, but there is/was hardly any condemnation from the only people whose opinions would have really counted. The Israelis and the rest of the world can complain about Hamas as much as they want, but it is only Gazan political opinion that counts towards the end of Hamas. There are plenty of people willing to steam roll Gaza, but international opinion makes that impossible.

   As for Katron’s fleet it only had 23 ships in total, it was not dozens (a dozen being 12). In three years it could have been done given how common the HRL ones were.

   You can put every enlightened law you want on the books, but at the end of the day, how do you propose to enforce them?

   Jihad-kun went with Lasse against 3 opposing Trinities and the entire HRL contingent, he wasn’t there to destroy both sides given how he lacked the skills to do so and the Trans-Am to do it. It was a rescue operation for Team Trinity plain and simple.

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3. Jarmel
   Posted December 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

   True the mobility is limited and so in that regards is similar to a railgun, although it is pretty impressive still with the ability to shoot backwards and at different angles. They are assuming Richieria will to go to war, and remember what they say about assuming. The Richieria base did not seem like it was at high alert or that they were moving troops out. If the Federation plans on going to war with Richieria then wiping out the military base was an early strike, which is fine. However for the Federation to claim that Richieria was going to attack them is not a legitimate excuse when we have seen no evidence to back them up. Just because the Federation thought that Seel was going to stand against them (and Seel was thinking of non-violent methods).

   Once again we have no clue how long that refugee base was there or how far away it was. As we have seen MM has a pretty large blast radius equivelant to that of a large nuke or hydrogen bomb so the refugees could have been far out but could have been wiped out anyway. I highly doubt that just because a refugee base was nearby means that Richieria was using them as a meatshield. Richieria’s government could have been in the re-locating them. If the Federation is known for having no regard for civilian casualties then you are right that Richieria should have reacted to this knowledge and relocated them faster. Once again though, Richieria had no clue that its’ base was about to be attacked either coventionally or with a WMD. As for the civilians, they had no clue what was going on either way and maybe trying to get food or supplies from the base.I could understand not firing MM recently as a test-firing but unless MM was just recently finished then they have no excuse in that regards as CB was just recently reorganized. As a show of force, you’re right in that it is possible Seel could have still resisted but there is also a chance they could have given up or been more malleable to a Federation peace treaty. The Japanese had no clue what the damage was even after Hiroshima and also thought that the Americans had one shot. This was before the age of WMDs so you have to include the shock and not understanding factor. Even if Seel had put more refugees around their capital, as you have said it wouldn’t stop the Federation anyway so that wouldn’t really matter.

   The US never reached levels of mass murder in WW2 that even approached Germany or the Soviet Union. We may have put Japanese in concentration camps or conducted unoffical ethnic or genetic cleansing but nothing even remotely this bad. The Germans killed millions of Jews, not to mention other people that did not fit the German ideals, in a five to six year span. The Soviet Union was worse even still. The USSR was an ally of necessity, we knew they were just as bad but had no choice otherwise we would have had German flags at our front doors. USSR assistance in Europe allowed us to focus more on Japan, which was going slower and was more brutal than anticipated.

   Politicans like to avoid controversial things even condemning them. Look how long it took the US to apologize for the Tuskegee experiment or Japan with some of the stuff they did in WW2(I think they still haven’t apologized for some stuff). There might be some underlying factor but governments and people in power very rarely admit when they are wrong or doing something wrong(probably so they avoid the bad press).

   Ok then even 23 ships with multiple bases in space (ep 1 along with wherever the current fleet came from) still would have taken large amount of resources being sent into space without the Federation knowing not to mention personnel. So we are assuming food for the fleet and the bases, supplies to maintain those ships as well to build new ones(unless they stole the current ships which would have been bad security on the part of the HRL).

   Either both sides agree to the law or one party uses force. Laws are based either on two principles, either people agree to obey the laws or the government forces the people to obey the law. I’m not advocating against force, but rather for qualified and precise force in needed circumstances.

   You don’t need to wipe out an army to destroy them. He could have just killed the immediate forces chasing after the Trinities and destroyed the Trinities as well. Take out one side then go for the other, where has Setsuna shown that he cares about Nena or that he even sympathisized with Trinity’s methods? We also have to remember that Setsuna overestimates his skill as well as shown by his rushing out and facing people like Bushido or Ali and not expecting to be pwned.

   BTW I am going to be slow in responding for the next week as I am visiting relatives who pretty much have no internet except dial-up(this also means I have not seen the latest episode).

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4. Crusader
   Posted December 29, 2008 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

   @Jarmel
   The Beam itself seems to be no bigger than 5km in diameter the shockwave is inderterminate at this point, but I doubt we shall ever find out. Still given the tense atmosphere they even if there was no shooting war, if they cared they should have moved that camp once the Regular Feddie Army and Seel were glaring at eachother. Just because the Richierians were not on high alert doesn’t mean they weren’t at war, after all there were plenty of Arab Jets caught on the ground hours into the Six-Day War. Perhaps they thought themselves safe, historically if a garrison thinks it’s position is out of danger or impregnable laxity ensues. Either way with tensions rising they ought to have started moving those refugees away if they really cared. Moreover its usually an NGO or some non military organization that hands out food aid, if the Richerian Military are the only humanitarian organization around something is distinctly wrong. If the Richierian Military is the only well funded organization capable of maintaining refugee camps then I would like to know why. Just because you propose that the Richierians were ignorant of the high tensions around them does not entirely excuse them, it’s not like we exonerate the CIA for dropping the ball or relying on spies named curveball. It took a while for Tenet to get sacked, but there were plenty who felt he had to go. I don’t consider ignorance to be much of an excuse, even if there was no war keeping those refugees there was a mistake. Given how there was probably a significant weapons store (bombs of every sort, ammunition for guns of various calibers) an accident there might have triggered off a chain reaction of conventional detonation that could have sent debris and shrapnel up to 5 km out (assuming its similar to an ammo tanker). I still think it’s irresponsible to keep refugees near that base to begin with. If Lindt wanted it gone I am sure it was of some military value given how he was not using it against cities within Richieria. Lindt is mean but he’s not stupid, why waste a precious ion cannon shot at something when there are plenty of other targets to choose from?

   I looked up Hunter Army Air Field (the Air Force moved out of there some time ago), and its been largely deactivated for the most part only serving as a support facility and housing about 5000 servicemen (that’s relatively small) and a the aerial component of a mechanized division and the “Nightstalkers” who are probably on business else where most of the time. It’s a base but it’s not what I consider a major military target of significant strategic value. It seems to be a maintenance depot for a few detachments more than anything else.

   Seel was going to war, if they weren’t why even talk to Kataron or even post Enacts outside the palace? The sentiment that was prevalent when Jihad-kun was sent out hardly indicated he was going to take them out, if the Trinities did not matter why interfere in their demise? I think he went out to save their asses because they were Gundam too. The Trinities were being hunted down if they were going to be destroyed why not let the UN do it?

   I don’t think we can divorce ourselves from our Soviet Allies all that easily, we overlooked the Katyn Forest Massacre, and we hardly gave them flak for the Warsaw Uprising, we even cut them deals that sold out Eastern Europe, and China too had Chiang Kai Shek won, and we sent them Lend Lease unconditionally. The US and Great Britain did some terrible things as well, we had guys like LeMay and Harris batting for our teams, it was a total war and we behaved accordingly, we were hardly saints. Again in war it’s whats practical that matters, ideals and moral values a swept aside.

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5. Jarmel
   Posted January 1, 2009 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

   It depends on the duration and power of the beam, just not the diameter. Theoretically if it burned hot and long enough, it could burn up the atmosphere. Nonetheless from what we have seen it causes quite a splash, enough so that Sergei in an armored vehicle was in danger, any person outside in that area would probably have been wiped out. Richieria not being on high alert or even showing activity proves that they were not going to be doing any offensive soon since as you mention that was one of their primary bases. We had seen no activity whatsoever by Richieria that they were planning anything other than to just stand back and watch. The National Guard supplies food in emergencies as well as having supply centers for things such as bandages. There might have been civilian organizations in the area as well that were wiped out. Being unprepared might be the sin in this case, however who expects a WMD dropped on them in a pre-emptive strike. Especially a WMD that has never been seen before(well to Richieria as the Federation is doing a information blackout). We still don’t know how far out the base was from the refugee camp, enough so that both got blown apart. If a government thought about every possibility then there wouldn’t be a nuclear power plant (which is actually pretty safe and amazingly fortified) just down the river from NYC. The point is that the Federation acted and this action resulted in loss of human life, not whether a similar action could have occurred. As you mentioned a garrison gets lazy if they think they are safe, so why would they bother with the civilians if they weren’t doing anything for themselves, like saving their lives or spreading out? As Kataron mentioned afterwards, the Federation is trying to destroy all military bases regardless of their importance, the Federation essentially wants all weapons in the ME gone regardless of their importance.

   Well I was just using that as an example of a military base near a civilian center. There is ACC which is located out of Langley Air Force Base, which is a few miles from Hampton, Virginia. There is also Fort Knox, Fort Miramar, Nurfolk, or Benning. All these places are near civilian centers and would be prime targets in the case of a war. Just because a military base is near a civilian area (especially when a country such as Richieria that does not know that it is at war with the Federation since the Federation did a pre-emptive strike, does not mean that it is using it as a meat shield.

   Kataron was going to provide Seel with a possible information network(not tools or weapons or anything like that) as the whole ME is on information lockdown since the Federation took over and the Kataron could have been an outlet to spread information to the rest of the world. Any palace would have guards and in a case such as Seel when they are on the defensive against the Federation, it would have been stupid not to have guards. CB in the first season was against all fighting, not just large scale battles or alike, since they attacked the three faction training exercise. Trinities and the HRL were fighting, therefore intervention was necessary to eliminate both sides. If they were Gundam too then Setsuna or anyone in CB would have been advocating joining the Trinities but we never saw any of that evidence, not to mention the fact that they didn’t consider the Trinities to be Gundams as they had the fake GN drives.

   Well once again we had to make a choice and at that time the only logical thing to do was join Stalin and get rid of Hitler. As for Katyn, we at first thought Hitler did it until it was later proved that Stalin did. We needed to give up Eastern Europe, partly because it was a lost cause anyway as Stalin had it firmly in his grasp but also because we needed some buffer zone in case of a war. We indeed have done some atrocious things under the name of democracy however that was a case of survival, which is different as by no means is the Federation under any severe threat. What the Federation is doing is very different from total war as they are policing what they believe to be a volatile region. If they were doing total war, we would see more involvement from the regular Federation officers and not just A-Laws.

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6. Crusader
   Posted January 1, 2009 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

   The shockwave was less than impressive if the MSs outside of the “Battleships” merely got a layer of dirt. Sergei was never in clear or present danger IMHO. I for one never doubted that a mere dust cloud could lay low the Wild Bear of Russia. What you say about the National Guard is true however with one important difference, they go to the people in need the people in need are not asked to huddle around a National Guard Armory. As for the bases you mentioned how much of it was due to urban sprawl? In the South the locals seem to mind the Military less, in else where up North and out West there is usually a significant about of distance between a base and the nearest settlement. Another difference is that the refugee camp was mere meters away from the perimeter without a mile or so in between the camp and the wire. It’s far more cozy considering there is usually some distance between most bases (outside of the South) and the closest major settlement.

   Again even if Lindt were tasked with wiping out all ME military power, he had to prioritize targets, he fired only three times so he wasn’t wantonly killing everything. Once again unless Lindt was a dullard targeting Richieria if it were some mere backwater of little importance as his second target would have been militarily stupid. Again why is Kataron being taken at face value when MM had only fired twice and yet all of a sudden everything is being blown away? There is a significant gap between reality and Kataron Bullshit. Lindt had up to that point blown away the Seel Capital and the Richieria base, and unless those two constitute the entirety of ME military power then Kataron is exaggerating at best and out right lying at worst, either way it’s hardly the truth.

   It’s fine for Seel to have guards posted, but it’s not like the British Parliament posts MBTs at the gates, neither does the Kremlin, nor the White House. Even if Kataron was trying to weasel it’s way out of giving military aid, the Feddies don’t know that, and they could care less. Seel was negotiating with Kataron, and whatever they were discussing probably was to the detriment to the Federation. Why should the Feddies trust that Kataron and Seel were simply having tea over some trivial matters when both are outwardly hostile to the Federation?

   How is Lindt supposed to know that Richieria is populated by people on paper they had a base there and it seemed important enough of a target for MM to shoot it second after Seel’s capital. Again when has sloth and ignorance made for much of a excuse? In 1967 Egypt and Syria were primed for war but when the IAF launched Operation Focus most of the Egeyptian Air Force was grounded since some big wigs were flying about and they could not have a rogue pilot down them. Again I think you are being rather unfair in putting the blame solely on the Federation for Richieria’s mistakes. Just like Operation Focus the Egyptians had to shoulder some of the blame for the catastrophe that left the IAF with aerial supremacy for the duration of the Six-Day War.

   Even if Jihad-kun intended to fight the Trinities he had only ever killed soldiers of the Big Three, and when the chance came to finish off Nena he let her go… The boy is stupid what he thinks is of little consequence if he constantly fights UN troops while cutting Nena a break. It’s rather hypocritical if his sentiment is not expressed through action as well. Hamas says they want peace, but they fire rockets into Israel, should we still trust that they want peace?

   At this juncture the Feddies are fighting against CB, Kataron, and the ME, fairly dangerous times if you ask me since CB in their view is this all powerful organization that nearly brought the whole world under Aeolia Hegemony with four Gundams. For them CB is what the Soviet Union was to us. CB has cooperated with kataron, Kataron is cooperating with the ME. CB and Kataron have in the past used terror tactics in the past and prior to there was no evidence of the Feddies killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians as CB and Kataron have. They are understandably wary of this huge threat that looms over them. Four years ago the threat was barely seen off in the end, now CB has shown up again seemingly unchanged and still associated with the Trinities. The ME seems to have been courting both and willing to support both, hence for the Federation four years of non-action in the Middle East (again Kataron talks a lot about freedom, but there was no Feddie presence in Azadistan up until CB showed up) had to end. We sold out Eastern Europe and every government-in-exile once the Soviets demanded such. We had the atomic bomb for four years, and yet we did ot use our nuclear supremacy to force better conditions for Eastern Europe, it was not a given that we had to capitulate to Stalin the way we did. What we did in the Cold War is similar to what the Federation is doing now, they see CB as a huge threat and have sent the best forces they can muster against it. The Feddies have also decided that it was time to remove the ME as a problem and as a Kataron base that might be used by CB, even if it weren’t why let Kataron catch breath when they need to be dealt with as well? For the Feddies it is a war for survival as Kataron wants them all dead or in slavery and CB seems keen to help them achieve this goal. Again it’s how the Feddies are perceiving events, what CB’s actual sentiment is of little importance if the Feddies constantly get Kataron on the ropes only for CB to save their asses at every opportunity. Given that it’s understandable that the Federation views ME, Kataron, and CB as one huge threat. All three seem to be cooperating, it’s not like CB is telling the Feddies anything about what they want or that they are only after the A-Laws and Innovators.

   The Feddie Army has been going around doing stuff, Sergei has been on the move constantly, their job isn’t involved with CB so we are not likely going to see it anytime soon. They aren’t just being police, some one is mopping up in Seel, and it ain’t the A-Laws.

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   • Ryan Moore
     Posted May 11, 2011 at 6:30 am | Permalink

     to be fair with israel Netenyahu implied that he didn’t want peace either. both sides a re essentially racist dickweeds

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7. Ano
   Posted January 6, 2009 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

   @Crusader

   You seem to be a Louise fan or something. While I personally can understand that many people feel the need for revenge, approving of it speaks volumes of your own character. Revenge is a selfish reason and one born out of hate. Louise is not a nice person anymore, she is a crazy bitch. It is Nena’s fault to a large degree, but you can’t blame everything on her. As much as a wuss as Saji is, he hasn’t let his hatred turn him into something that he hates. Saji hates what CB did and what they do, but he realizes that if he acts in hatred he would become that which he despises.

   Louise shows no such remorse, she was the one that funded A-LAWS and even joined them just so she could have a chance at murdering those she sees as her enemies. There is absolutely no forgiveness in her heart.

   A-LAWS kept it’s prisoners in concentration like labor camps in space, never given them a day in court to appeal their case. When they step in to stop Katharon the deploy automation units that indiscriminately kills everything living. There is no way in hell Louise wouldn’t know about this.

   As for Nena she is the same way. She is motivated by her wish for revenge and by her belief that she can change the world. Nena is a bit sick in the head, being raised to become a Gundam meister and taught nothing about empathy, her spoiled selfish nature shows through. It doesn’t excuse her actions, but saying Nena is wrong in her actions while glorifying Louise selfish murderous actions doesn’t seem right to me.

   Hate Nena and Louise. Like Louise and Nena. You can’t really love one of them but hate the other one because in a sense they are both the same type of character.

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8. Jarmel
   Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:12 am | Permalink

   @ Crusader

   An average mobile suit is 18 meters so what could be a surface of dirt for them would most likely be fatal for a regular human being. Well the Guard sometimes set up refugee camps in times of emergencies as to whether they would put it near a military base would depend on the situation I guess. Although a better example would be Fort Drum and in case of emergencies supplies food to New York State and logic goes the closer you are to the base, the more likely you are getting food. Part of the location of bases might be due to urban sprawl and another part of it might be due to Southern mentality that is more accepting of the military (part of it could be due to political reasons but that is a totally different argument) but main point with that is that there are many reasons that the base could be near a military base (unless the Richieria government forced the civilians near the base, which is not likely) especially in a country that is not as organized(militarily and civilian wise) as the USA.

   Well he only got a chance to fire two times (four if you count space battle) before he got attacked by Kataron(if he had more shots who knows). Seel was done as to prevent any possible protest from Seel and to prevent a possible war or any information leeks from Seel. Richieria was done as a separate campaign by the Federation to destroy all ME military bases. Richieria was probably one of the major military bases, however again this was (from all accounts we have seen) a pretty much peaceful base that had a million civilians outside. If you are claiming that ignorance is a sin on the part of the Richierians then I say recklessness is a sin as well on the part of the Federation. but this is coming from a guy who said “My beloved extermination battle”, to which I highly doubt cares about civilian lives. Now if you believe that what the Innovators are doing is correct, then any amount of civilians or people killed is irrelevant(to which I could counter with by saying that CB then has the right to kill as many people as well). I’m sure Lindt had a list of targets but CB and Kataron probably screwed things up for him.

   Well for the US, the White House is not really the command center in times of war or emergency. There is Raven Rock Mountain Complex for the Pentagon, to which is highly classified and under heavy guard, or Camp David for the president, or the Cheyenee Mountain for NORAD. I’m sure Russia and the UK have a similar thing in place. What people see on TV are not designed for wartime and mostly for show(although I’m sure there is heavy security). The continuity of government programs in multiple countries show that places where the real operations take place from are indeed under heavy guard and security.

   Well if he had a death ray satellite (similar in design to the “supposed” Clementine satellites) then I’m sure he could have spotted roughly one million people, which is the equivalent of a decent sized city. The major difference with Egypt and this is the use of WMDs. It probably would have been much less embarassing for Egypt if Israel used nukes. Catching someone offguard using conventional forces is vastly different then nuking an enemy in a preemptive strike.

   Well for the Trinities by the time Setsuna got around to them, two were dead. After Ali, he was in no place mentally to fight anymore. After thinking you were facing certain death against your arch rival only to pull out an ace that you didn’t even know about probably would exhaust you two, not to mention the time limit on Trans-Am.

   As for the current Israel and Hamas situation there are some similarities(although by no means am I trivalizing Israel or Palestine’s immensely complex situation and emotions on both sides). It raises the idea such as with this, if one side attacks your civilians first do you have the right to respond by invading the country (with any means at your disposale including WMDs) and taking total control of the civilians, although there are some differences such as Israel being careful not to hit civilians and Kataron not being a seperate country. There are both sides to this and I’m not saying either is correct, just something to mention. Although I do suspect that this would be radically different if Israel used nukes against Palestine before going in or not caring about killing civilians in the crossfire.

   Well CB’s ability has been greatly reduced since the introduction of A-Laws and the Federation’s Gundams otherwise again we would see a larger movement by all their forces(since as we know CB can lose if faced by such large odds that the Federation has at their disposal). Although it does look like the regular forces are coming into play again, with the introduction of Bear’s Russian(?) friend, after the disposal of MM. The Federation also knows that the Trinities really conducted the civilian targeting(partly through Wang and Ali) as CB destroyed military bases through straight up assaults. The ME it seems is content destroying themselves. Kataron really doesn’t pose that much of a threat as seen by the previous episode in which A-Laws essentially destroyed their space fleet, mostly without MM. We haven’t really seen any direct correlation between ME and Kataron except that Kataron has a couple of bases there(which probably would be easy to set up as the governments have their own problems). Azadistan was on the verge of civil war (as seen by the Princess essenttially expelled and all the chaos around the palace) so I doubt they were doing anything against the Federation or helping Kataron, it seemed they were content killing each other.

   As for Eastern Europe and nukes, I do believe there were Generals advocating such a strategy, but most likely war fatigue probably set in and I’m sure some later Generals such as LeMay were probably regretting it as well. This was before the age of true ICBMs and really the only means of delievering a nuke to Russia either was by plane or submarine. So we pretty much would have had to turn Eastern Europe into a nuclear wasteland to really get into tactical range of a B-29. Well the thing with the Soviet Union and the US is we never had any large scale or really direct battles(for the most part). The closest thing I can think of would actually be closer to the American Revolution (although the goals and means and stuff like that would be different). As CB (America) and the Federation(UK) are having some direct battles but also using guerilla style tactics and the Federation is sending their best troops, although in the AR the UK sent Hessian mercenaries as well as some of their best troops. If they really thought it was a survival for their lives, would they send only one Innovator, with no Bushido or Ali, and no large contingent of regular forces(I’m assuming that the space ships consisting of the defensive shield of MM firing at the CB ship were A-Laws, which still weren’t that many)?

   Well it seems that one of their top Commanders,I’m assuming Bear is one of the best), is not really participating in any actual battles or it seems even on cleanup duty (although it’s quite possible) as essentially nothing has been shown in Seel after MM. This however would negate the point of shooting MM at Seel in the first place if their point was to stop any potential action or military confliuc by Seel then they shouldn’t have to be doing mopping in Seel. If their point(as it always has seem to been due to the Innovators) was to take control of the ME and in particular Seel then mopping up would be needed.

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9. Crusader
   Posted January 7, 2009 at 2:04 am | Permalink

   @Jarmel
   I did not see any Feddie troops that were out in the open in those shots, so I assume that most of them were in mobile suits or on the carrier. If the Feddies were reckless the whole ME would have been glassed and MM would have fired everytime it had charged, After all in the end charging time was rather short if Lindt could fire twice in the same battle, he had two days worth of time, if they wanted to the Feddies could have glassed the entire place or at least every major city in ME, but they did not.

   Considering the quality of ME governments in general I don’t think we can pass Richieria off as an island of democracy, even our own ME is anything but. Still to keep 1 million refugees in tents for any period of time indicates that this issue did not pop up over night. More over the relative size of the camp makes the figure of 1 million a figure Shirin just pulled out of thin air (though this is more of an issue of Sunrise simply telling us through an unreliable character instead of showing us). Lindt battles of extermination are in line with German cauldron battles that resulted from Blitzkrieg the idea then as it was for Lindt the utter annihilation of enemy forces. Again the word extermination does not necessarily apply to civilians so far Lindt only attacked civilians along with militray targets and again he was not going out of his way to kill them, and he isn’t going to bullshit and claim that his ion cannon is a precision weapon. Lindt had ample opportunity to fire more than twice considering the short recharge time for MM (twice int he course of a few minutes or hours considering how things went down in the last episode). Again he could have glassed much more than he did. I don’t think that for the Federation proportionality is going to have mush support given how the specter of CB is haning over them once again, CB is still a significant threat that the A-Laws cannot even full contain let alone defeat. From a strategic and realpolitik point of view knocking out Kataron was going to be a priority, ME support or even tolerance for them is no longer acceptable given Cb and Kataron collusion. It’s not going to be pretty but since CB and Kataron seem to share the same goal of destroying the Federation for them it is about national survival. CB has yet to beat up on Kataron for bombing their civilians so why should the Feddies believe that CB is only here to kill part of the Federation and not all of it? Once again civilians surrounding a military target does not make it a civilian target by diffusion or osmosis. The Federation as two options let such things stop them from ending this as quickly as possible or simply wipe out the base and deal with the consequences of victory rather than defeat. Refugees are not necessarily friendly, after all if safety was all that mattered why flee to a military base of a poor regime instead of heading towards the Federation?

   For three years the ME governments have allowed Kataron to have free reign to build substantial facilities in their territory so that they could attack the Federation. It’s similar to how the Taliban are holed up in Pakistan, if the Pakistanis were not willing to cooperate you can be sure that India, NATO, and Afghanistan would invade to correct the situation. It’s not like any nation today could ask its own people to suffer terror bombings in order to spare a bunch of foreigners who allow the bombers to have safe haven. Given how even our own GPS bombs have a hard time telling apart gas cylinders and rockets how could your tell that it was a refugee camp and not an entire army camped out next to a military base? Only Shirin knew about the camp the rest of Kataron seemed rather surprised so it was not necessarily public domain. Given Feddie technology isn’t that more awesome than our own how could you tell a refugee camp from a military camp on thermal imaging or low res video taken from space? Perhaps the Feddies don’t have a real time Google Earth, which even then our own still has dead areas and it is dependent on how often there is a satellite pass given how it was a military base the growth of an enclosure of tents might be taken for a military build up of reserves since it was not common knowledge that it was indeed a refugee camp and even Shirin had to guess. Not even the US has a system that can see with such clarity that our gaze can pierce earth, cloud, shadow, and flesh. I am sure if you had such a system you could be a very rich person. Technology does not eliminate civilian casualties altogether, human judgment is still a factor. If I asked you what you thought a settlement of tents next to a military base were, I doubt the first thing that would jump into your mind would be refugee camp. If you were a soldier you’d probably think that it was likely reserves being called up for deployment (soldiers often camp out too). Now that I think about it there was also room for human error in addition to Lindt simply not caring and the Richierians being dumb. If all you had was a satellite photo one could draw the conclusion that it was a build up of reserves based on tents net to an air base.

   Kataron is pretty much Hamas and Hezbollah in a sense, in a straight up fight they are pretty much useless, but because of their use of asymmetric warfare they are still a threat. I think the America Revolution is a poor comparison and the Arab-Israeli conflict much more appropriate. On the one hand Israel has pulled punches many times since 1948 but still they have no real peace, they could have taken Cairo and Damascus on occasion but because every time international opinion demands a ceasefire nothing is really resolved. Lives are only saved in the short term until a few months later when violence breaks out. Even in the current situation a ceasefire would do little but give both sides breathing space before they go at it again. The thing about terrorism is also the issue of the civilian, so far ME has provided Kataron with volunteers and political, and possibly military support. Once Seel was going to cooperate with Kataron it essentially declared war on the Federation. Lint’s salvo was only going to cripple Seel command and control apparatus and let the regular Feddie Army mop up more easily, he only wiped out the capital there were plenty of Seelian units that needed to be disarmed, otherwise those heavy weapons could make their way to other hostile groups.

   Proportionality has not been much more than a band aid if you ask me. Given how it seems that every few months after a Palestinian-Israeli ceasefire guns and rockets start going off only scant months later perhaps this proportionality thing is little more than a way to redistribute casualties. Who knows maybe if the Palestinians and Israelis went at it like Egypt and Israel did up until the Camp David Accords we would have a more lasting peace. So far because the Palestinians support groups like Hamas to the point they would elect them, there will be war in perpetuity. The world gives them respite every time, and what good does it do in the long run? Hamas fires rockets, Palestinians don’t seem to care enough to stop them, Israel fires artillery in response, it goes on for months, Israelis organize a huge raid, world protests, things stop, protesters think that they have achieved something, rinse recycle, repeat. Egypt figured it out after fighting three wars and bankrupting themselves for the sake of a Pan-Arab goal. Egypt and Syria bore the brunt of the fighting and lost the most money compared to the rest of their Arab brothers, whose help was of little consequence in the overall picture. Perhaps bankruptcy is needed to remind the Palestinians that UN aid will not always be there, given the economic conditions even if there is a cease fire there is no guarantee that there will be a hand out once unemployment rises for the rest of the world. Maybe then they will finally ask Hamas to stop wasting money on rockets and provide enough food for Gaza once UN aid reaches an all time low.

   The A-Laws were used as the tip of the spear it was hoped that they would have been able to handle the situation without having to mobilize the entire Federation Army which is even in our time a daunting task as it means pulling men an women out of garrison, calling up your reserves from their civilian duties, and retooling production for the onslaught.

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   • Ryan Moore
     Posted May 11, 2011 at 6:36 am | Permalink

     to be fair a recent poll showed that a large part of the palestinians are willing to offer peace if israel makes genuine efforts. Also Israel does have innocent blood on it’s hands (the deir yassin massacre, qibya) and the settlements sure as hell are an abomination (especiacilly since the settlements hoard most of the water). both sides have major issues.

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10. Jarmel
    Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    I await your post on episode 16. =D

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