Gundam 00 S2 – 12: Louise Dumps Saji for Good, plus Louise Appreciation

62 Comments

1. Haesslich
   Posted December 21, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

   Well, the first season had Louise all cried out, and whatever was left apparently went with Ginin’s death scene. Now… she fights. Amazing how they rescued her character from being annoying to one that a person can stand to watch. No fit of emo except for that first realization that Saji was on the other side, which she knows killed her folks – and she can be forgiven for not knowing that he plans to betray them too.

   … but man, Setsuna really has to be thinking that he sucks right now – not only did he beat two other suits only because he had a superior one, but he got his ass kicked by Saji. SAJI CROSSROAD of all people – it’s like getting your ass kicked by Patrick, but more humiliating since Saji isn’t a trained mobile suit pilot or a soldier.

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2. bakaneko
   Posted December 21, 2008 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

   Ok, just admit it, Crusader. You’re in love with Louise too.

   But all those pics of Louise are awesome though. If only she isn’t the insane bitch bent on revenge…

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3. Eirias
   Posted December 21, 2008 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

   Think of how over-powered Setsuna’s final Gundam is going to be once this one gets jacked/destroyed/rendered obsolete. Quantum tunneling won’t be the half of it.

   Btw, real quantum tunneling (i.e. not quantization) is the absolute shit. Glucose oxidase can quantum tunnel oxygen. OXYGEN. That isn’t some crappy electron. This is an atomic nucleus, 8 protons and 8 neutrons, deciding to completely ignore classical thermodynamics!

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4. Valmanway
   Posted December 21, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

   To dub that slap as the legendary Bright-Slap is an insult to Lord Pimpmaster Bright himself! Bright-slaps must not be executed with the back of your hand! To do so is to besmirch the name with ponciness.

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5. Mechafetish
   Posted December 21, 2008 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

   Anyone else think that Louise might become the Katejina (V Gundam) of this series? Its interesting that Katejina’s last name was Loose (or Ruth depending on the spelling). The crazy face she made sort of reminded me of her. Also, They both happen to be blond and share a connection with the main character.

   I might be reaching a bit, but would it be so bad if cyber-Louise racks up a kill count as high as prince-Ali (who seems to be the Yazan of this series)? It makes me excited.

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6. Jarmel
   Posted December 22, 2008 at 12:23 am | Permalink

   Why are you still defending the Federation, I can understanding hating Celestial Being for their tactics but the Federation is worse. How many people has Celestial Being killed in their interventions all together? The Federation just killed one million civilians casually. The Federation is both reckless and does not know the meaning of restraint. It’s obvious that they are taking the Bush doctrine to the maximum.

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7. skoll
   Posted December 22, 2008 at 12:50 am | Permalink

   Am I the only one who got Kemeko reference? Probably not. It’s a shame it isn’t a Kemeko-Ahead. Man, I feel lame just saying that. ‘Ahead’? Destiny’s ‘Impulse’ made more sense.

   Anyway…

   @Jarmel.

   I am inclined to agree with you, TO A POINT. While I’m certainly of the opinion that Crusader likes to whap around insensible liberals more than he actually agrees with the Federation, I think you’re off on a couple of points. First, just because an autonomous arm of the government acts irresponsibly, doesn’t mean that the entire government should be overthrown. This is without the fact that Sunrise literally HAD to have A-Laws be excessively evil just to try and garner sympathy for their pretentious, annoying, undisciplined terrorist protagonists.

   The second fallacy is that killing a million people with a hugeass laser is an exceptionally bad thing. If you count the combined casualties of last-seasons CB efforts, razing large military compounds, slaughter lots of men of service, military contractors, and civilian associates, CB have probably made a kill count equal to one million, and all in the name of some ridiculous global disarmament scheme that nobody, I repeat, nobody accepted. Yes, CB killed more servicemen and less civilians numerically, but if you compare the total killcount ration of civilians to servicemen of both sides, you’re likely to have CB kill far more civilians. Why? The Federation is a goddamn country. They do things other than tango with CB. I don’t see why its worse to vaporize a million people compared to killing them slowly while wrecking the livelihoods and sovereignty of nations. Yeah, A-Laws killed a lot of civies. But they also killed terrorists, which is a reasonable form of impetus. CB killed lots and lots of civvies and servicemen, because they were ‘ending war’. Let’s ignore the fact that there was no major war at the time.

   The third fallacy is that they’re ‘taking the Bush doctrine to the maximum’, indicating your obvious misinformed nature. The ‘Bush doctrine’ is adequately described as ‘maintain American supremacy’. Not, ‘kill anyone we think is a terrorist’. If you’re going to quote Guantanamo Bay, don’t, because those aren’t casualties, those are violations of human rights. Different issue. If you’re going to talk about Iraq, you will be very surprised to discover the civilian to militant death ratio of Iraqis. Also, it’s not Bush’s ‘doctrine’ that kills civilians, it’s military ROE, and no other military in the world could have done better. So really, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

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8. Jarmel
   Posted December 22, 2008 at 1:16 am | Permalink

   At the first point in regards to this, the Federation is backing up A-Laws. The Federation President is fully aware of the A-Laws actions. While it does not justify destroying the government it full justifies action against that government for change of leadership.

   Not just killing a million people but a million civilians. I highly doubt CB killed anywhere remotely close to 1 million MILITARY PERSONNEL. Celestial Being has conducted itself more along the lines of guerilla warfare while the Federation has based itself around anti-terrorist warfare. I could also make the point that the soldiers in A-Laws are fully aware of the moral actions that their unit is doing but nobody is protesting. Atleast CB is trying to destroy A-Laws, remember in the beginning of the season, Setsuna said he wanted to destroy A-Laws not the Federation. Their whole point was to create the Federation however what they did not expect was something like the Innovators controlling the Federation or the A-Laws being power crazy. CB in the first season was doing what they thought was necessary to end war, something like the proverb(not exact words) but kill a thousand to save a million.

   You are wrong in regards to the Bush doctrine. The Bush doctrine is in regards to preemptive war and eliminating any possible regimes that could pose a threat to your country. You maybe are mixing up Bush’s policies rather than the “Bush Doctrine”. If you want to verify this check wiki or any other source, since after Palin it is well known what it means. My use of the term was correct.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Doctrine
   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/09/12/BL2008091201471.html
   http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bush_doctrine

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9. blind_dead_mcjones
   Posted December 22, 2008 at 1:29 am | Permalink

   i’d like to know how the innovators plan on capturing the 00 considering it’s not linked to veda, and therefore makes the biometrics harder if not impossible to bypass

   i’m feeling less sympathetic to louise now as she’s starting to come off as an expy of shinn fucking auska, fighting solely for vengance, and although he’s a jerk andrei was right in pointing out that she has no place in A-LAWS (or any army for that matter), i’ve never once seen her act with professionalism or restraint where the gundams are concerned, also there’s serious questions to be asked about her sanity, obviously the A-LAWS pyschological exam leaves much to be desired.

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10. Lawl
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    Jihad cemented his character as being carried by the story because of his retarded conversation with Saji. To top it off, the stuff everyone was thinking was voiced by Lyle, indicating that Sunrise knew exactly how retarded Jihad was, and basically using Jihad’s amazingly vague response, trolled the audience completely.

    Could have made up excuses on how he MIGHT have had some “skill” involved when piloting the new god of Gundams, but that scene just boggled my mind. 4 years ago, it’s okay for Jihad to be retarded, but now? Even Saji at the end realized he was going to make the same mistake, but Jihad didn’t even realize how STUPID of an answer he gave Saji was. EMOTIONALLY CONFUSED GUY NOT KNOWING THE BIG PICTURE BEING TOLD VAGUE CRAP THAT SOUNDS STUPID = LULLLLL.

    Another thing to notice is how the Innovator suits all have their pilots in that little rocket ship. Strange how NO OTHER SUIT HAS THIS FEATURE, it’s like Oh hey you are ALL EXPENDABLE besides we Innovators. Too bad Prince Ali didn’t notice, OR DID HE?

    Bob of course will replace his lungs for a GN-Tau Twin Drive and pull a Lord Jeremiah on Setsuna, where his ultimate Twin Drive suit will explode and a Twin Drive Flag will come out which will also explode and He will come out with Twin Drive also. Then Jihad explodes.

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11. Crusader
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    @Haesslich
    It seems you are right Louise is all cried out and all the better for it, no more tears for her, only vengeance. Jihad-kun sucks he didn’t dodge or counter the punch he got floored by Saji Crossroad. I think we can all agree now that Jihad-kun is very much unworthy of Gundam 00.

    Patrick has proven in the past that he at least has teeth and get powered up by Katie’s kisses. After all Lockon Mk I found out the hard way that Patrick can get serious.

    @bakaneko
    Well she is a better woman than that moe blob wannabe and loser lover of Saji who competed with her mom. S2 Louise is superior because she is in love with Soma.

    @Eirias
    We have been using a crap version of Havok Physics for some time now, its that damned GN pixie dust that does everything…

    Jihad-kun is going to need a shit ton of upgrades at this rate to compete with Prince Ali.

    @Valmanway
    I said Ribbon learned something in his past life, I never said that he mastered it…

    @Mechafetish
    With any luck Louise will end this series as Princess Louise Halevy al Sarshes. XD

    @Jarmel
    When Kataron declared open season on Feddie civilians two months prior to Memento Mori firing a single shot, they sowed the wind, the Federation is making them reap the whirlwind. Forget Bush for just a moment and see it through the lens of a real Total War which is what this conflict has spiraled into, civilians on both sides are now fair game ever since Kataron decided that it was a good idea to hit civilian targets. CB has also hit civilian targets in the past and in light of that restraint has little support because this is a war of national survival for the Feddies as much as it is for Kataron.

    I never said it was right of Lindt to blast that Richierian base to glass, however those refugees had no business being there in the first place. It was a military target and in a war military targets will get hit. If the Feddies showed restraint every single enemy base would have a refugee camp out side of it and the war would drag on and even more people would die as a result of war. Its nice to think that war can be pleasant and that you can show restraint, but this stopped being a limited war once Kataron started attacking civilians and CB showed up again after four years. Considering the amount of damage CB inflicted four years ago I thin the Feddies understandably feel that this is a war for survival. CB has sided with Kataron whose state goal is their destruction, the time to play nice is over.

    Kill one million it is a statistic, kill one you are a murderer, kill ten you are a monster, kill 100 you are a hero. Lindt pointed the laser at a military target, 1 million died as a result of Lindt not caring and the Richierians using meat shield tactics. Both sides are wrong on some level, there are no good guys here.

    Again if the Feddies pulled punches every time Kataron and their allies hid behind their civilian populations you can be sure that Kataron will make a habit of it. The Feddies are caring as much about those enemy civilians as the Allies did about Axis civilians. I don’t think that is evil, but it is unprincipled and brutal in practical neccessity. This is not a police action or a police raid, this is a war where the Federation is fighting an enemy who has declared their civilian population as fair game. Regardless of what CB thinks they are doing, they have aided Kataron whose stated goal is the destruction of the Federation. I don’t think any one in the Federation other that Ribbons realizes this. So far as 00bama is concerned the CB and Kataron threat are one and the same. It’s not like we distinguish between Sunni terror groups to a large degree.

    If this were a limited war you might be correct, but restraint has no real place in a total war. Richieria placed refugees around a military base, in war that base would have been bombed regardless of who was around. If it were a police action there would be negotiations and the like, but there are no cops and the only instruments of negotiations are weapons. Against a meat shield tactic you can either not shoot and watch as your enemies surround themselves with refugees, or shoot and make clear that such tactics will not avail your enemies one bit. At least with the latter option perhaps refugees will run away from military bases, PR fallout will ensue. However I hardly consider it just for Richieria to surround their bases with refugees and launch attacks on the Feddies with impunity.

    Really it was a ploy to generate sympathy late in the game because Kataron is looking like a bunch of douche bags who spend money on weapons and not a single penny on feeding the starving population they pretend to be protecting. Protest against total war all you want, but at the end of the day the reality is restraint is a nicety only nations with overwhelming superiority can afford. The Federation is fighting CB as well and on that front they have been outclassed time and again they have no room for failure as GN pixie dust has been monopolized by CB.

    Restraint…I don’t know comrade, had the Allies shown restraint then the Axis would have have been fielding jets in quantity in 1946 and the war against Japan would have dragged on until every Japanese soldier was dead on every front. All the while while the Japanese looted raped and killed the locals in China. I tell you again, I never said it was right, war never is. The notion that you can have a clean war is what I consider to be the heart of the problem on why it is declared more often than it should. You only see the use of precision munitions and think tat war can somehow be clean, I tell you now those expensive toys are only for low intensity conflicts. If you look at a real modern war like the Arab Israeli wars you will see that the amount of dumb munitions expended is astonishing and that people will die when nations clash. Lindt is doing some terrible things by showing his enemies no mercy just as Kataron has shown the Federation no mercy when they took out Ginin’s wife to be. Nevertheless Lindt is doing a necessary job, LeMay and Halsey were not nice people but nevertheless they helped bring an end to the war. If Kataron started this war then Lindt will do everything in his power to end it.

    You can support CB all you want, but GN Pixie dust allows them to moralize what they do the Feddies don’t have that they don’t have magic, and they do have a civilian population that is under the daily threat by Kataron terror attacks. They can show restraint, but how many Feddie civilians will have to die as 00bama finds a kinder gentler way to fight the war against Kataron? how much longer will the Federation Army last against a combined assault by both Kataron and CB?

    As for the A-Laws being power hungry, despite their appetite for tax dollars they are still taking orders from the elected President who did not come to power by a coup but by an election which most Federation citizens had no problems with. That sounds like a proper civilian controlled military to me.

    @skoll
    No I am sure there are others out there, still I need to find more SomaxLouise Yuri fan art.

    @blind_dead_mcjones
    Vengeance at least I can understand, and unlike Shinn Asuka Louise is not blaming the AEU or the Federation, but CB which as far as all non CB people can tell supported bitches like Nena. That I think is the point that differentiates the two. Also at least Louise is not going to cry about it any more not that she has shed that many tears anyway except for Ginin. I like Louise as she is now even if she is fighting to avenge her family and her captain she is indirectly helping preserve a better way of life for the majority of the world population. It wasn’t the fighting for vengeance was bad, but rather that Shinn was a dumb ass who blamed the wrong people for what happened and became a traitor. Louise at least is blaming the people who helped save Nena.

    I still think Gundam 00 will delete it’s biometrics to serve Prince Ali if given the chance…hell it probably loves Bushido Bob more than Jihad-kun anyways.

    @Lawl
    Any ways I think that Prince Ali will taking a fearsome toll on CB and Kataron once Ribbons realizes that he had a professional Gundamjacker on his payroll.

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12. lilu
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    @Jarmel:
    From anime I get that CB as organization existed a long time ago, so yes they killed more people than A-LAWS. Ptolemaeus mission completely to eradicate the war sounds like motto of some sect. When they first time showed up it sounded like we are the ones who know everything better than you and we are stronger than you and so you just do like we are saying and we will not kill you. Interesting how people love CB after that?
    And not all A-LAWS and Federation are bad. Setsuna in this episode said that the enemy is Innovators. Better these Innovators created by Aeolia who is the founder of CB would die.
    Jarmel, I feel more sorry for Saji and Louise and even Andrei and the others than any CB member. And I don’t like CB, A-LAWS, Innovators.

    12 episode:
    *Ribbons slaps Wang – I like it
    *Saji punches Setsuna – I like it(remember when he wasn’t able to shoot at Setsuna, now at least he managed to hit him)
    *I noticed that Patrick has brains when he said that GN-XIII is useless in 9ep..That’s why I applaud him using tactics and team work against superior machine – gundam. This made me smile and the punch his GN-X get made me smile too.
    *00 Raiser Trans-am showing that it can do more miracles. Please tell me that there is someone who can brake this thing, because I am not interested in one-sided battles and the same goes to Memento Mori.
    *And preview with Lindt and Memento Mori reminds me
    AMAZING

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13. skoll
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    @Jarmel

    Claiming to destroy a section of a government and not the government is absolute nonsense. That’s like somebody saying, ‘Wait wait guys, we’re not trying to destroy AMERICA, just the USMC’– it’s nonsense. Regardless of A-Laws sins, no flawed government institution in modern history has ever been destroyed by martial action– only by media attention, public and internal criticism, and legislature. It’s an absolutely ridiculous premise and you likely know it.

    I’m entirely aware of what the Bush Doctrine is. I don’t see why you took the the effort to correct me when I essentially encapsulated the totality of your links and descriptions with one statement. I believe it doesn’t apply here. At all. I apologize for being smart with you, since you clearly do know what the Bush Doctrine was, but I don’t think that anywhere in the Bush Doctrine Defcon-changing measures such as large-scale vaporization work toward the stated goal of maintaining supremacy. Shaking the stick is allowed, not using it.

    Regarding killcounts. You’re probably right. I’m not sure exactly how long the first seasons ‘interventions’ went on for, but consider this. The USMC base in Okinawa, a reasonable comparison in Federation bases in my opinion, is home to 3,400 combat personnel, and another 20% perhaps on top of that in civilians. Now, the difference is, Okinawa is an infantry base, and in 00, it’s mobile suits. So you can probably double that number when you add in maintenance crews required for mobile suits, soemthing the Okinawa base doesn’t have to worry about.

    Now consider the fact that the show has almost pointedly shown CB to having achieved a nearly 100% mook kill ratio. Now, since this is a show, we don’t think about it when our protagonist badassily stands in the burning wreck of a military base, but those were people. Lots of people. Now consider the activity of Throne, plus interventions that didn’t involve military bases and you have a pretty hefty number, conveniently ignoring the fact that CB has used radiological weapons and cluster bombs, both unethical. And for what? Nobody liked them then, nobody likes them now.

    Yes, Memento Mori is bad. Possibly worse than CB. But it’s very forcefully so. Overbearingly so. And even then, it’s not a far cry, when you rationally think about it, from what CB does. And I completely understand if Crusader wants to play devil’s advocate just for the sake of sticking it to the screenwriters for being so blatant.

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14. skoll
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    @ Crusader

    You do agree that the use of Memento Mori was needlessly blunt, eh? You might not be as spiteful as I thought you’d be.

    Frankly, I’m feeling some annoying SEED sensations again, what with the way this looks like its going. You know what I mean. That whole, ‘Oh-we-destroyed-the-superweapon-so-everything’s-dandy-now’ deal. What are they going to do, blow it up? Hope to god that the damn thing wasn’t backed up somewhere? The atomic bomb was destroyed when it was dropped on Hiroshima, and that didn’t stop it from proliferating.

    On another line of discussion, man, Ali’s beard and hair are all terribly impractical. I don’t know why I single him out in particular, but good luck to any medic that needs to save his life from a head wound.

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15. Jarmel
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    Lol I should make a paper out of this later.

    Remember Kataron is not official government. Your comment about how “When Kataron declared open season on Feddie civilians two months prior to Memento Mori firing a single shot, they sowed the wind, the Federation is making them reap the whirlwind”. Well the problem with this is that the Federation is now attacking any military base in the Middle East not just the Kataron one. It seemed that Richiera was posing no direct or indirect threat to the Federation(unlike Seel which was contemplating action in some degree). As an official government attacking civilians because your civilians were attacked is never acceptable(although there is historical precedent such as Russia with Germany after WW 2 however this is now codemned) Look at the public backlash of the firebombings of Tokyo or Dresden due to the high amount of civilians killed. Imagine the uproar if the United Nations did something like this because a terrorist group targeted civilians. Btw are you sure that CB attacked a civilian target(insurgents nonwithstanding), I just don’t care enough to dig through season 1. Besides an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
    If there are civilians in the crossfire that is understandable. However Momento was fired at a base that obviously had refugees around it(I use obvious because Shirin did not even look at a computer or wonder if there was a base there, besides one million people in a desert kinda stick out). It would seem to be pretty easy to check to see if civilians were there around the base through some satelite.

    For the refuges we do not know the situation, the military base might be one of the few places left in that country for water or food. It seems more along the lines that the base was there and the refugees formed around it. The Federation did not offer the base a chance to surrender, even though the base was doing nothing except existing at that point.

    In regards to restraint, well I suppose that is how you view war. The modern approach to war is to have restraint and regulations(although some people would argue that a country should obliterate their country) through things like the Geneva convention or the UN charter. Late 20th century policy has refuted the idea of total war because it is too costly both for the people and the countries. We try to make sure that things don’t escalate to the point of WW2 or anything like the 3rd Pumic War. Richiera from what we know was not one of the countries resisting the Federation, this seems more like the Federation cleaning the house of any potential trouble.

    Well we kinda know that Kataron is helping the people they are protecting, look at the children they took in(we have no evidence that they children are being raised to be terrorists). Also since this is an anime, I highly doubt they would waste airtime to show Kataron feeding the starving. Although for Kataron what other options are left to them other than fighting? Diplomacy is seemingly out the window as any country that even tries to negotiate is wiped out. All the Middle East countries are now broke so no money to buy influence. If you remember correctly in the last season, the UN was ruled by some crazy nut so that is probably out the window too. All they really have left is either to sit and take it or try and fight. Although I HEAVILY DISAPPROVE of killing civilians in any situation.
    Also have we ever seen the Federation try and talk with Kataron(not negotiate but just talk and try to understand where Kataron is coming from)? We have to keep in mind who runs the show here and it is not A-Laws or the President but rather the Innovators. The Innovators goal is not harmony but rather absolute obedience to them and anyone standing in their way will be obliterated.
    I am perfectly fine with the Federation it is just A-Laws, some of the higher ups, and the Innovators that must go. The Federation is not acting like a government but more along the lines of an empire that is trying to conquer the world through fear.

    I just would like to see the Federation actually negotiate with these countries instead of blowing them straight to hell.

    My comment about the A-Laws being power hungry is that it seems that every opportunity they get to use overwhelming and unneeded force(they could have just regularly bombed the Richieria base) they use it, not to mention the fact that they built a global laser satellite.

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16. rollchan
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    yuck.

    Ribbons pwned WangWang.

    Louise kisses Saji’s @$$ gudbye…

    Smirnov Jr wants to date Louise, but the girl doesn’t want him.

    and you’re right. Bushido Bob x Louise, FTW!
    

    Ali bin laden Saachez is still da best, all in all.

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17. Jarmel
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    @lilu
    It seems though that CB was more restrained in the past and limited itself to extreme cases such as Setsuna’s home country. The large scale interventionist policy was done by Sumeragi and current crew. I still don’t think that CB even with history as killed over 200,000 people max(Thrones and berserk Gundams not included). Sunrise has tried to depict the humanity of A-Laws and the Federation through Pedo-Bear and Louise. As Crusader said, war is not nice. I do feel bad for some of the Federation but when they just go around changing the landscape at random then I kinda lose my sympathy for them.

    @skroll
    Well the thing with this is there is no current precedent for A-Laws. The closest thing would be something like the Israeli assassination squad in the 1970s. A-Laws pretty much answers to no one but the president and the Innovators. One way of destroying the section would be to kill the Innovators and the president(most likely to happen) who are the cause of the ‘disruption’ in the world. Celestial Being can also have A-Laws do something unjust then release it to the public who will riot and want A-Laws disbanded. So far CB has been trying to figure out who has been controlling A-Laws, although they now know, and target those individuals. As you mentioned just killing everyone in A-Laws will get nowhere.

    The Bush doctrine applied here because it has to do with the Federation taking pre-emptive action and war against nations they believe either to be a threat or harboring terrorists. The Federation is trying to complete their supremacy over other countries(mainly the Middle East which at this point has no particular value since they ran out of oil) by using vaporization weapons.

    In regards to the Thrones remember CB and the the Thrones are essentially seperate and CB hated how the Thrones just went around killing people to the point of the two factions fighting. I’m not saying CB doesn’t have blood on their hands, as they all mentioned they are going to have to carry the weight of the sins. However imagine if the Federation just acted as a normal government and did not just conquer the Middle East out of revenge(supposedly for the ME not giving them oil) or pride. The Federation as a government could prevent wars for hundreds of years(if it lasted that long but knowing governments probably not). The people possibly saved due to the lack of wars would probably exceed the people(soldiers mainly) who died during CB’s armed interventions.

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18. blind_dead_mcjones
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    @ crusader

    on the same token, like Shinn, Louise has often disregarded her orders and simply charged in ‘no guts no glory’ style, had be been using a normal mobile suit she would’ve been shredded, but seeing as she’s been using a GN powered one, and has had both ginin and andrei bail her ass out, she has survived thus far, and Lindt’s letting her pilot soma’s ahead has inadvertantly encouraged her maverick behaviour.

    Now that ginin is dead, all his hard work trying to make her into a professional soldier will seemingly be for naught as now there’s no one who will pull rank and keep her in line, and there’s no telling what she might end up doing.
    I’m sorry but i find her conduct unacceptable, she’s supposedly a professional and such should act like one, after all it’s behaviour like hers that gives soldiers such a bad rep.

    I doubt that 00 would do that for ali, after all the 00 is a jilted fickle bitch who loves no one, hell it might let ali or bushido bob in, then lock the hatch and do a GN exhaust bypass just to spite them.

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19. Crusader
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 4:09 am | Permalink

    @skoll
    Every Gundam has to have a WMD, though all things considered at least the A-Laws are targeting military and strategic targets, they just don’t care for the meat shield tactics of Kataron and their allies. Besides as bad as WMDs are if find meat shield tactics to be even more despicable.

    @Jarmel
    Hamas runs a charity too as does Hezbollah I don’t think any one can really kid themselves into thinking that because of their charity work that they ought to get free license to fire rockets from behind civilians and be absolved of all responsibility for it. The Thrones were attacking civilian targets if you remember it’s not like Louise was doing something evil when she attended a wedding. before you go on about how CB was not involved, just because they verbal protest means nothing, in the end Wang took them in, and Jihad-kun saved Nena. As far as the rest of the world is concerned they are one an the same, and even in the side stories, forcibly conscripting criminals and strapping bombs to them to compel their cooperation ain’t exactly nice. Again there are no real good guys here, CB just spouts a lot of moralistic sophistry which you seem to favor. I am under no illusion that war is anything but terrible.

    The rejection of total war has not made war any more clean, it’s not like the Palestinian issue has been better off or even bloodless because of restraint. It could be argued that Israel is showing tons of restraint by not pushing Hamas into the sea and blockading them instead.

    Kataron drew support from nations like Seel and Richieria given how Kataron operated unmolested within their terrirtories, In the case of Seel it was outright support with Richieria we don’t know yet, but given how up to that point Lindt always had a method to his madness there was probably a good reason. Again Lindt did not glass every where only at his enemies centers of gravity. Even if the Federation knew why should they not strike a military target that poses a credible military threat to their operations? I am not saying it was right, but from a purely military point of view if the enemy uses meat shield tactics for whatever reason you can still hold back and watch them set up camps around all their bases or strike and make clear that you don’t care, and that the only way to stop it is to surrender. It was obvious, but why should Lindt give a damn? The base was to be destroyed Richieria surrounded it with refugees it’s a tragedy, but if Richeria realizes that they can get away with meat shield tactics every base will have a refugee camp and all of them will remain operational because Lindt had morals and the Richierian government did not.

    The Federation probably did offer negotiations, but Sunrise being Sunrise will never show them. Prince Ali burned Azadistan to the ground, but the Feddies did not move in with guns blazing. In the past they rather have no conflict in integrating member states, Richieria did not join in four years ago why would they now? Negotiations will only succeed if both sides are willing to talk. Kataron is pretty much the greater Middle East at this point, they have not said anything about negotiations only how the Feddies are bad. The UK had been talking with the IRA for years only when the IRA was willing to give did negotiations go anywhere. Even then people were still dying… Kataron has had three years to give up, instead they build fleets and armies to fight until the Federation is destroyed, Klaus doesn’t talk of negotiation, neither does Shirin who never gave the Federation a chance to work. Kataron isn’t in the mood to negotiate or surrender while they still have weapons. Where did you get the idea that Kataron was willing to negotiate when they launched their own terror attacks as recently as two months ago? When the Feddies showed off their Ion Canon ceasefire was not even considered.

    The only reason why there were any civilian casualties in the last strike was because the Richierians bravely hid behind a bunch of refugees. I ask you why it is acceptable for Richieria and Kataron to hide behind civilians? Why does Lindt catch all the flak for pointing his laser at the control tower, while the Richierians get excused for putting that refugee camp next to a military target?

    If the refugees were dumb enough to crowd around a military target in a time of war it’s their own damn fault for ignoring the information that Kataron and Richierians had provided along with that pillar of light that wiped out the Seelian capital. Since you think kataron is being good and just why wouldn’t they warn people about the Feddie laser that is leveling every target of military and strategic value int he region? Why are the noble Richierians not able to warn them off that there was a war going on and that they had refused to join the Federation? It’s not all Lindt’s fault for what happened. Kataron didn’t warn any one but themselves, Richieria gathered a million of them into one location.

    If you think that total war is dead and that the Geneva Convention is universally respected then I suggest you look at Africa and see how your morals on war have fared in a region that has endured it for decades. Honestly only in Western Armies really follow it, the PRC sure finds it funny, and the Chechen wars were not fought with niceties in mind. War is barbarism at best. You are probably only acquainted with the wars of the Western World, but look to little known conflicts like the ones in Africa, or the forgotten Chechen Wars and you will see that war hasn’t changed.

    Honestly you paint such a rosy picture of the Middle East I cannot help but laugh. You say they are poor, but given how all their weapons Kataron, Seelian, Azadistani, and Richierian are in excellent condition and operational in respecatable numbers, I think you are being foolish if you buy into their poverty spiels. They have money for palaces, televisions, Anfs, Enacts, and bases but not enough to feed most of their populations…forgive me if I find that their poverty is more the result of their military industrial complexes than that of the Federation.

    I think you are too caught up in the sanctity of the Geneva Convention, you can dream and wish for a cleaner war. However in my experience and from what I have seen war has never been nice nor will it ever be, before the atomic bomb whole populations could still be wiped out with swords and spears. It’d be nice if everyone followed you notions of restraint, but that only shrouds the problem with a veneer of false assurance that war can be clean. The Geneva Convention only works if both sides agree to it, if one side refuses well why should the other side adhere to it?

    Sure we cry about Dresden and Tokyo now, however who remembers Nanking? Who remembers the Warsaw Uprising? Sure an eye for an eye makes everyone blind, but if it was your family that was killed or your friend that was beheaded or your sister that was raped, I don’t think morality will be the first thing on your mind. Vengeance is a human emotion it is irrational it happens in war which is an irrational exercise in itself as no one can predict the outcome or account for every possibility. So long as both opposing sides believe that they have a shot at victory there will be war. Only when both sides are bled out or one side is utterly destroyed can you have a lasting peace.

    The Feddies have only resorted to force in the Middle East which not only rejected union but harbors terrorists who launch attacks on Federation civilians, they were offered the same deal as every one else and they spat on it. One has to wonder for what reason is so good that abject poverty and slavery to a military industrial complex that robs the hungry of food so that Princess Poverty can watch TV is actually preferable. The only people in the Middle East who seem to be be well off are terrorists and autocrats, why do you excuse them for buying weapons and palaces when poverty is all around them? Again how is this more just?

    @rollchan
    No, SomaxLouise FTW!

    @blind_dead_mcjones
    I have more faith in Louise, at least she was listening to Ginin and asked for permission to charge in, she obeyed his orders at least. That for me is something. Even if Louise was being a hot headed otome, it seems Ginin’s death affected her greatly and that she can control herself without a minder or with a mask of politeness. Andrei was belittling her and Louise showed a lot of restraint by not flooring the guy. We shall see if Louise is going to be a team player, I hope that Ginin’s death was the wake up call that Louise needed; that it was Ginin’s leadership that saved her ass more than her own antics.

    Also Louise deleted all of her mementos of Saji, which is the exact opposite of Shinn and his creepy phone.

    Reply
20. Jarmel
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    @Crusader

    Nobody is trying to excuse Hamas or Kataron for attacking civilian targets or hiding behidn civilians(although Kataron it seems is not guilty of this). The only civilians we know of that hang around Kataron are the kids and I highly doubt that they make a good meat shield and if Kataron was even remotely intelligent they would know it too. Celestial Being did not only just do a verbal rebuke but also in ep.19 fought the Thrones. At this point we have no clue whos side Wang is on but I can confidently tell you it’s not on CB’s side. Wang is not acting in CB’s interest and her taking Nena seemingly has an ulterior motive to it, possibly Nena being able to hack Vader. As to Setsuna saving Nena well you could make the argument that saving Nena was secondary and side effect while killing Ali was a priority. You are in correct in the perception that the rest of the world thinks the Thrones and CB are the same, however we the audience know better. The Thrones more closely fit your idea of CB than CB itself, the Thrones would kill civilians or anyone in order to bring the change they felt the world needed.

    The rejection of Total War, I could argue has made war cleaner. While there are still cases such as Palestine or the war in Darfur, it has helped in cases such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Georgia. Countries are limited in their actions (either through treaties or international press) and cannot just wipe countries clean. This was also a crucial idea in the Cold War too with M.A.D. If we had pursued a policy of total war there probably would be two large holes where the USA and the Soviet Union used to be. Things like the UN are trying to reduce war and the brutality of it. Thats why we have programs such as the International Court of Justice that looks at human rights violations. We are rejecting the idea of total war even if in practice it might not always work.

    As to the comment that Kataron drew support from countries like Seel and Richieria, we don’t know. We do not know where Kataron got its’ funding or supplies from, it could be a seperate third party that wants chaos and fighting to remain in the world. However we do know that Seel and Richieria did not officially or unofficially give supplies to Kataron. I can say this because the leader of Kataron had to go and negotiate with the King of Seel about whether Kataron would let Seel use their information network. Richieria we pretty much know nothing about their relations with Kataron however we do know that the only country that was putting up an active resistance(and by active I mean maintaing defenses) was Seel. The other countries pretty much are standing by. We have no clue where Kataron is stationed. Look at how hard it is to catch terrorists in the mountains up near Pakistan(although whether the government is trying is another matter).
    In regards to the member states, it seems that all states outside of the Middle East joined up into the Federation for use of the solar energy. However the countries in the ME such as Richieria were reluntact to let go of their cash cow and did not join the Federation, also supposedly the Federation was ticked that the ME milked the countries for all they were worth. If the Federation did offer talks we have no clue how they went, the Federation could have said that all states in the ME will lose their sovereignty(similar to the Delian League instead replace Persians with CB). Also what negotiations can happen while the Federation has that doom cannon? If you ran the government would you listen to a bunch of small terrorists when you can just wipe them off the map with a push of a button then cover it up in the media later? The Federation is not interested in removing the source of the problem but just the people.

    As I mentioned before, we don’t know which came first the base or the group of refugees. If the refugees came on their own, then the government was not intentionally using them as a shield. Besides it is not as if the Richierian government knew A-Laws had a solar death ray which would wipe out a 10 mile radius. The only thing with similar power would be an atom bomb and who would use that against a regular military base before a declaration of war. We also do not know where the refugees came from, they might have been from Seel in which case this refugee camp would have been relatively new and not enough time to move the people to a safer area. In a time of war sometimes it is better to be near a military base as they can provide protection and possibly food instead of in the middle of nowhere where the opposing army can do what they like to you. Kataron it seems has also been stuck with the information lock down as they can’t communicate with the people in say the USA about what is going on in the ME.
    Well according to the producer and scriptwriters they are supposed to be poor since the oil ran out(the palaces and stuff could have been bought when they had money). You could also point out how even the wealthiest country in the ME, Seel, had way outdated stuff. Azadistan before it got burned, did not look exactly well off or even above the poverty line.
    From a personal standpoint yes, war is an irrational exercise. However governments are to be above irrational emotions and do what is in the best interest of the state(not always happens but for the most part is true). According to your idea, China should go into Japan and starting raping and killing everyone. Logically China has a better military and would easily win. There are two reasons they don’t do this, one the international press would crucify them and the second is that rationally there really is no benefit for them(Japan has little natural resources). You pretty much are justifying mass murder with this sentence “Only when both sides are bled out or one side is utterly destroyed can you have a lasting peace”. Not only would you have to destroy the military but also murder the civilians as well so the civilians later don’t join the military to exact revenge.
    Well have we seen any ultimatums(and Sunrise could easily put this in) in which if Kataron surrenders than the Federation will stop the obliteration of the ME? Also what gives the Federation the right to force everyone into joining the Federaation, power? This is essentially realpolitik at work. I’m not exusing the terrorists or autocrats as they are to blame for the poor state of their country. What I am saying though is that the Federation is just as bad if not worse than CB both for continuing a cycle of violence instead of looking for some peaceful solution and also not caring who dies as long as they get their goal.

    Reply
21. skoll
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    @Jarmel

    There doesn’t need to be a precedent. All that you need to know is that A-Laws are backed by Federation legislature, and are therefore a part of the Federation government, no matter how ‘autonomous’.

    I find your application of the Bush Doctrine to be needlessly broad. Preemptively invading a country for harboring terrorism is certainly Bush-like, but it is also one of his more popular actions. If you remember correctly, Afghanistan was and still is the ‘righteous war’ and Iraq is the sneered at one– Afghanistan being a military operation to displace a government harboring terrorists and Iraq being a military operation to displace a government with WMD. So really, using that as a weapon in the case against the Federation is a poor choice. If I were you, I’d focus more on the usage of WMD, rather than it’s impetus. In any case, this is all a nonissue because people don’t die needlessly in collateral damage because of overarching strategic doctrine. The Bush Doctrine doesn’t cause any more civilian casualties than any other doctrine leading to war. What causes civilian death is the stringency of military ROE, and the nerves and judgment of the men on the ground.

    It really doesn’t matter whether CB and Thrones hated each other at all, what matters is that they were PERCEIVED as a homogeneous faction. A Federation commander, Lindt in this case, making the call to use the superweapon wouldn’t consider the distinction valid.

    I also don’t buy the idea that the Federation invaded the ‘Middle East’ for something as petty as pride. Pride has certainly started and maintained wars in the past, but such a thing ostensibly requires a strong sense of nationalism and a strong tradition of governmental honor codes. Neither is present in this situation. The Federation, having only recently been formed, could not reasonably have a strong sense of national identity, nor could it have long-standing traditions of indignation. I therefore propose a more believable reason: upon the obsolescence of oil as a major source of energy, the Middle East became the new Africa, widespread economic unrest coupled with already-present religious fundamentalism and ethnic/social clashes destabilize the region until the whole situation becomes supercritical; terrorism, piracy, and depression ensue, resulting in a dangerous situation that the three superpowers of season one inherit. In short, the Federation has done anything but cause unnecessary death with its war. It is quite literally containing the situation before it can destroy the greater political structure of the world.

    It is not the motive that is questionable here, it is the method. I agree with Crusader in saying that the Federation’s intents are undeniably righteous. The Federation is not the US. It is not a minority exerting its will to protect its affluence and status in the world. It is quite literally the WORLD. What we have here are a volatile minority of malcontents aided by a dangerously militarily and technologically potent group of pretentious terrorists, who threaten to destroy the new Unity in the name of not the Federation’s pride, but the Middle EAst’s. It is the Kingdom of Seel and Kataron that force the Federation’s hand in refusing to subsume their national identity in favor the the supranational Federation.

    Is this wrong? No, it is morally ambivalent from an objective standpoint, and righteous as a citizen of the largest political bloc in history– either way, the Federation cannot be blamed for acting. It can only be blamed for overzealousness, and I am certain that casualties would have been MUCH higher if the Middle East snapped and got their angry hands on something they could never undo. There are certainly evil elements to the Federation, as it is so broad, such as Ali who literally seeks to instigate war for money, but CB has Thrones and Kataron, so who is the bad man?

    @Crusader

    Yeah, I was actually going to say that, but the edit feature disappeared so I let it go. All the way back in the original with the mirror-thing, lots of WMD.

    Reply
22. Jarmel
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    @skoll
    My whole point with A-Laws and their connection with the Federation is that currently in the public eye, A-Laws and the Federation are seperate. A-Laws is like a police force that deals with anti-terrorism while the Federation does the main operations of the army. We can see this in the way that the Federation is handling the media and is trying to seperate the A-Laws from their main force. A better comparison might be the Gestapo and the Wehrmacht. If this holds true then all CB needs to do is kill the Innovators and Ali(just for kicks). In reality most likely CB will have to destroy the leadership of the Federation as well as the A-Laws leadership because the same guys are running the show.

    My reference to the Bush doctrine was not in regards to loss of civilian life but rather use of force through either military or WMDs. You are right that the Bush doctrine results in the same amount of life loss as any other doctrine of war. I was just referring to using something as heavy as nuke for a pre-emptive strike without warning, it would have been like us nuking Iraq before going in. WMDs should not be used without provocation, in the heat of war, or hopefully never at all. With something as large as nukes the strategic gameplan because the ground plan.

    I can’t remember what season or what episode but at one point they mention that the world had been devasted by loss of oil and before then the Middle East countries had been doing very well at the cost of the rest of the world. Looking at this from a realistic stand point(which I should never do in a Gundam series) you could say that the countries could have a grudge, like modern times in which some people in the USA feel we should just take over the ME and the oil with it so we can profit off of it instead. Also we don’t know how large the Federation is, we do know that is comprised of the three factions before but I don’t think everyone joined those factions. The idea of policing the Middle East is fine but forcing it into the Federation is not. The difference is the sovereignty of the state and whether that state feels it’s in its’ best interest to join the Federation. Just taking it over is simply imperialism, even if a majority of the world is part of the same club.

    The method is obviously overkill but I also question their motives partly due to the Innovators who pretty much tell the President of the Federation what to do. The Innovators run the whole show and they could care less about individual or groups of human beings but rather having the whole human race bow before them.

    Well I think the whole point with this anime is to try and portray both sides somewhat fairly(although Sunrise doesn’t know what subtlety is if it came and smack them on the face). Celestial Being had its dark side with Thrones and is currently dealing with Kataron(which it seems that CB doesn’t like very much as it is). Federation has the Innovators, people like Ali, evil fat guy who leads A-Laws, and so on. I think they do try to depict CB trying to have higher moral standpoints then their counterparts but it is up to the viewer whether to damn them or not.

    Reply
23. Dark Messiah
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Bah… Another Emo episode, Saji weep and despair Too much takes Screen time

    wow is so great when The evil Bitch (wang liu mei) get slapped in her face. and Louise-oneechan now cool, with that crazy smirk seems Louise ready to Obliterate and destroy Gundams anytime.
    Now i hope louise soon meet with nena and settle everything with her,
    (The only thing that louise need is a rage, hatred and killer instinct).

    Reply
24. Yamila
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    THIS EPISODE WAS SO FUCKING EMO AND BORING.

    end of caps.

    Crusaider, of all the reviews you have made, this is the one I agree with you most. 100%. Louise is indeed the woman of Season 2. Congratulations, dear, for dumping that fucking idiot for once and all. Now go marry Andrei or Soma, if she ever comes back from the dead. And fight, fight, fight!!!

    Also, Ribbons is made of pure win. PURE WIN. Someone had to put that bitch in her place.

    That said, I hate Setsuna, but I can’t believe he is so pathetic to get hit by the even more pathetic Saji. I can’t stand that emo fucker anymore.

    also, the 00 Raiser is awesome. *drools in mechaphile mode* good thing it didn’t kill the Innogaytors, they can’t die now that the series needs more interesting characters.

    Reply
25. Kaioshin Sama
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Wow, some really good discussions going on here this week, I’m going to have to come back to read all of this. I’ll just add for now that I’m impressed with how interesting Louise has become as a character. On the one hand you want to roll your eyes at her jumping to conclusions about Saji and bugging out, but on the other she has some justification based on her current emotional state of just witnessing two of her old acquiantences, one of which used to be her boyfriend killing her mentor in Zinin. That’s a lot to take in all at one time, and while some may call it emo, I’m not sure anyone here is truly capable of handling a situation that fucked up. There’s bound to be some confusion and overly emotional reactions there.

    Also I think a good point has been raised too in a problem that 00′s characters share in common with Zeta’s, though nobody actually mad a connection. Characters like Graham and Ali…..they have this habit of disappearing for episodes at a time without so much as a clue dropped about what they are doing. It is a bit troubling, but I suppose they are non-essential at the moment so I can live with it for a little bit longer. Finally….

    “Kill one million it is a statistic, kill one you are a murderer, kill ten you are a monster, kill 100 you are a hero. Lindt pointed the laser at a military target, 1 million died as a result of Lindt not caring and the Richierians using meat shield tactics. Both sides are wrong on some level, there are no good guys here.”

    BY GOD HE’S GOT IT! I knew it, I knew the Pro-Federation, Anti-CB thing was a put on. HAHAAAAAAAaa you’re alright Crusader.

    Reply
26. Crusader
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    @Jarmel
    China lacks one critical thing, a navy, Japan boasts a sizable one, and then there is the matter of the US Navy based in Yokohama. The PLA ground force is significant but without a Navy of comparable size taking on the JSDF and US Navy with a fleet based around some old cruisers is suicide. If you think that the CCP gives two shits what the Western Media thinks, then you do recall what happened in 1989…they never gave a shit then they sure as hell don’t mind suppressing rural dissent now. It’d be strategically stupid for the PRC to invade Japan, and when I mean bled white I am talking about the Balkans, Africa, Chechnya, and the Palestinians. There is plenty of strife to go around in the troubled places of the world ad just because you have no good journalists out to make a name for themselves doesn’t mean the power of news can overturn everything, Burma is a prime example of coverage without results… Only real democracies have to worry about PR, dictatorships don’t have to care nor do one party states, and both of those have the war option on the table. The International Court of Justice will only ever try the losers of a war, I don’t see the Sudanese leadership standing on trial or even bothering to show up. Let’s be honest here it lacks teeth and any real authority to subpoena unless backed by weapons of a friendly state. It’s great that we have it, but forgive for being cynical if I think it a bit of a farce when it lacks power to drag people in power to the witness stand. Lastly the media can be just as bad as any state, you still have Fox News and there have been instances of yellow journalism.

    Merely tolerating their presences mere meters from the wire whether intended or not made those refugees a meat shield. Even if the refugees came on their own they could have been sent else where to some strategically unimportant location, but they let them stay and their numbers swelled to 1 million souls who lived in tents. Kataron claimed to have an information network which would disseminate the info they got from Seel, so it’s not like Kataron couldn’t warn people…they never even bothered. So in short either the Richierians tolerated a refugee presence in a dangerous sector, and the refugees were too stupid to realize that military bases get hit in time of war. Your refugees may be “innocent” but they were guilty of being astonishingly stupid, I am sorry but in that case those refugees were partly to blame for their own demise as well.

    The Solar Wars effectively ended OPEC and it seems that decades later Seel and Richieria still insisted upon having the power of their OPEC days. Why should the Federation allow Seel and Richieria to wield an inordinate amount of influence when their oil is worthless? Moreover just because a weapon is 4 years old doesn’t mean it comes cheap an M1A2 has its roots since the 1980s and it still costs quite a lot to maintain and build. Even the Feddie regulars still use Tieriens and Flags, the weapons Seel boast and that of Kataron are still expensive and require money and time to keep in fighting condition. These aren’t small arms these are complex machines that need maintenance, as such why is there plenty of money for those but not enough to feed their populations? They have a monstrous military industrial complex that robs the common man of food on his table. They may have their freedom, the freedom to starve. Kataron complains how they get shut out from Solar Energy and don’t offer to pay for it. Their whole agenda is based on the idea that the Middle East should get free stuff without having to join. They had their freedom, Azadistan was left alone to got their own way and continue to be poor, only after Kataron formed three years ago were the A-Laws formed in strength to fight them (considering how they were still looking for pilots and had funding issues it seems that the A-Laws are relatively new).

    Even if they are poor palaces need to be maintained, hell if they got fountains that still work it seems to me the autocrats of the Middle East had money to burn, hell even Princess Poverty had a maid…I still find it hard to believe that such good rulers would live in the lap of luxury while their people starved.

    When the Federation was formed they needed all the help they could get, the Middle East opted out as the, HRL, Union, and AEU lost men, money, and equipment to fight off CB while the Middle East was spared intervention by CB. The Federation succeeded the UN it was at that point Seel and Richieria bet on CB and opted out of the Federation, they lost that bet and spent their money on armaments and let Kataron hide out in their backyards without much trouble at all, that may not be overt support, but it is awfully implicit.

    Strategically the Federation is threatened on three fronts, by CB, by Kataron, and by countries like Seel who seek to profit in the destruction of the Federation. Knocking out the Middle East as a threat is the strategically wise thing to do because it eliminates one front entirely, unlike the other two Seel and Richieria cannot hide. At this juncture eve Sergei the moral voice of the Federation wrote off any peaceful resolution, for four years nothing had been accomplished, if the Federation wanted to resolve it by force from the outset they would have steam rolled Seel without selling them Enacts or any heavy weapons, and it makes no sense for them to sell weapons to a future enemy when Feddie grunts would be better off using Enacts instead of Tieriens. Negotiations did occur along with weapon sales, those failed for reason we are not privy to and if the King of Seel was infamous for his antagonistic stance with the Feddies, negotiations were pretty much pointless as the King of Seel was spoiling for a fight. Moreover since it was already indicated that once Seel went to war the rest would follow, indicating solidarity or even a regional alliance.

    I hardly see the point of seeking a peaceful solution for the Feddies when the king of Seel has no desire to deal, when the Middle East rather spend money on arms instead of food, when CB is forcibly demanding he impossible, and when Kataron has the stated goal of nothing short of the destruction of the Federation. Really I think you ask too much for the Federation to continue negotiations with groups with no desire to deal. CB has greater military power, they don’t even feel the need to negotiate or signal any desire to, neither has Kataron too. The Federation could continue sending in envoys who might get killed or captured and used as hostages or it can fight against those who seek to destroy it. Even if the Feddies are willing to deal none of their enemies seem willing to deal, so again why risk people’s lives for the sake of a maybe? The Feddies have a physical address Kataron and CB could write or send an envoy at anytime. The Feddies don’t have the luxury of a Kataron or CB embassy or any point of contacts with either group.

    Even with the UN politics is still dirty business, I don’t want to pretend that it is in any way clean. you say government ought to be rational, governments are run by people who are by nature irrational, I find it hard to believe that a rational government can be formed by irrational people.

    @Dark Messiah
    Ms. Wang finally got her just deserts and lo it was not CB that delivered it but Ribbons! Funny how it is the bad guys who kill or punish the most bad guys.

    Louise will find this Nena and she will kill that lousy bitch one way or another.

    @Yamila
    Louise is the new heroine of Gundam 00, may she rescue her beloved Soma from the clutches of Haptism. Ribbons was simply awesome this week.

    @Kaioshin
    Louise drew a logical conclusion based on what she knew, Jihad-kun was a CB agent and now Saji was with him, their association was a long one and it wasn’t that far fetched. Besides Louise did the right thing by choosing brethren over wenches. Ginin seems to have been at least a good mentor to Louise even if it was never shown, the last time she cried was for him after all…and she had none for herself or for Saji at this point.

    Prince Ali and Bushido Bob should not be warming benches, it is really sad that they are not being used as effectively as they could be. Ribbons will regret not asking Prince Ali to steal Gundam 00 for him. i just hope Bob will not be Acre late again, and only show up for the last few minutes…

    Reply
27. Ian K
    Posted December 22, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    @Crusader
    You mentioned that only true democracies have to worry about PR. What does it say about the Federation that it doesn’t?

    Some other thoughts about total war: After your civilians have been targeted by the enemy, I agree it is justifiable to attack the civilians that support the enemy to protect your people. Within reason of course (I’ll let other people come up with exact guidelines). However, that doesn’t mean doing so will help you in the long run. In the real world, once the Feddies started lighting off cities and refugee camps with orbital lasers there would be a huge outcry, and Kataron and CB would be able to use it as propaganda to get more recruits and contributions. On the other hand, you CAN bash enemy populations into relative submission over time, but it is a difficult process.

    Even the most famous example of the proper application of total war, the atomic bombings of Japan, may be flawed. I have heard it argued that the Japanese Emperor and his advisers paid little attention to the civilian deaths – they had lost millions of servicemen and civilians, and they were planning to shed the blood of millions more to slow the Allied advance, why would a mere 220,000 dissuade them? This line of argument says that what changed the Japanese leaders minds was when Russia declared war against them. Apparently they knew that any deal they could scrape up with the US and Britain would be preferable to any surrender delivered at gunpoint to the Russians.

    Reply
28. Excalibaa1!
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    There will be a huge outcry? of who? the people are already dead! most of the world is under federation rule except three countries, If cb wasnt in the way, then kataron would have been finished already! The whole world of the federation>three countries in the middle east.

    Its already been stated that the fed citizens have a high standard of living, why would they care about brutally killing terrorists and their supporters?

    After terriorist attacks on the fed citizens and the fed wiping out the terrorists to protect them, and their high standard of living. . .Where would the outry come from?

    I can see if the feds had some CIA force, inciting rebellions over sovereign nations just so that corporations can get to their natural resources (ala U.S.A and the U.K)

    Or that 00bama was using the fed or a-law troops to pre emptively invade a country to get at its resources using false evidence(ala bush)

    Or doing other shady things that would piss people off enough to fight the feders. . .

    but nothing of the sort was mentioned. The middle eastern countries rejected the feders and started attacking them. . .Now they are fighting back. . .

    the terrorists are hiding behind their own citizens, and the citizens are allowing it to happen. . . .what do you want the federalies to do, just sit there while the enemy uses their own people as a shield?

    if YOU were that federal soldier being shot at while the enemy was using their own peopole as a shiled, what would you do? Try and talk to him and get killed in the process? Or shoot thrgouh the hostage to get to the terrorist?

    The A-laws arent some civilian police force, this is war. If I were that soldier, it would be bye bye unlucky cilivilian.

    And if the roles were reversed, I sure as hell would not let someone use ME as a meat shield. hell, I’d shoot him myself! personally Id leave the kataron country and be a refugee to a federation city! (instead of a military base. . .)

    its not that hard to make a white flag out of your underwear and give yourself up to the federal military as a civilian refugee. . .

    They havent been killing any refugess on purpose yet. . . and its episode 12. . .

    in zeta, They gassed a whole colony killing millions before the series even BEGAN.

    so yeah. . .A-laws=/titans, or any kind of “evil” force

    hell, what annoys me the most is the fact that cb is fighting in the first place!

    Why take the side of a bunch of fucking terrorists? its not like they were forced to be terrorists, the arguments that this show has used to make it seem like they were oppressed his pretty weak, ESPECIALLY in comparison to real life examples (like the us, uk, china, etc. . .)

    for this reason I feel like “meh” whenever I watch this series (which I stopped only to read this blog to get the gist of the story)

    I was just skipping over the emo scenes to get to the fighting, but even that got boring.

    maybe once its finised ill marathon it, if it stops sucking story wise.

    Reply
29. Jarmel
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Well an invasion of Japan or Taiwan by China would essentially be a declaration of war on the USA. In regards to Navy, China is no slacker in that regard. They have the Russian Sovremenny-class destroyers are increasing to a pace that by Western analysts could be the world’s leading naval power by 2020. The reasons that Japan doesn’t invade Japan is the same ones that they don’t invade Taiwan. Their economy would take a severe blow, a possible war with the US, and international sanctions. We have to remember that China is trying to become a global superpower(just look at the Olympics) and since 1989 have taken steps to integrate itself more in the global market. Doing something as drastic as possibly causing sanctions from the US would cripple the Chinese economy, just look at the current Chinese market. No news doesn’t overturn everything, hell just look at Darfu, but sometimes it can cause government reactions, look at the Spanish-American War. Well the problem with the ICJ is that people can ignore it and sometimes it doesn’t always prosecute the people it should but the idea that countries are held responsible (either morally or through sanctions or UN peacekeeping interventions) for their actions is a powerful motivator. Well according to your definition pretty much the whole UN and any other international treaty is a farce because there is no higher power that can put them in line. However IGOs play an important part in keeping some sort of international relations and making sure that countries don’t always(even though they sometimes do anyway) do what they want.

    So according to that logic countries such as the US should not allow military camps inside its own country or near any sort of population center even though the US has a large military base right outside of Savannah, Georgia. If this base was nuked then I wouldn’t be surprised if a few million people died. Just because there is a population center nearby does not mean that it is a meatshield especially when there is a spontaneous increase in refugees. Moving a million people is not an easy task under any circumstances especially during a time when nobody essentially knows what is going on. Especially since Richieria prob doesn’t know the Federation has a solar death ray, look at the hush order given to Pedo-bear in the last episode. The only people who really know and are allowed to talk about it is Kataron and they didn’t expect the Federation to just start vaporizing every military base in the ME. Nobody expected the Federation to just randomly attack military bases in the ME with a global satellite essentially noone knows about. Besides does being stupid justify being killed?

    Who said anything about influence? Richieria and Seel are pretty much a nonplayer on the global scene. Yes the weapons that Seel use probably cost money to maintain but they are trying to maintain some sort of defensive force. It seemed that Seel was one of the few countries in the ME who had some semblance of order and their defense force might have been part of it. You say why doesn’t Seel use that money to feed its’ poor, well we don’t know if they did. It’s a little ridiculous to call it a ‘monstrous military complex’ when we don’t know the size of their army. Besides look at the USA which uses a ridiculous percentage and amount of money to fund the Pentagon. So according to your idea then we should spend some of our money that is now focused on the Pentagon and redirect it to the starving poor and the horrible education system in our country. We don’t know what the Federation demanded for access to the Solar power, it could have been mergence into the Federation and the states did not want to give up their rights. Besides even in the real world we are more lenient that the Federation, look at the IMF and the IDA. We pump loads of money into it knowing that it is gone but we do this in order to help developing countries. I mean the IDA in particular is just giving out money. We do this though because we recognize that it is in our long term benefit if these developing countries are industrialized. Maybe the Federation could have offered the ME some sort of deal in that until the ME is back on its’ feet, the Federation could offer it some sort of discount. As you and others have pointed out, the ME is a hotbed for terrorism now, but bringing some sort of stability to the governments and the economies would go a long way.

    Your annoyed because the Princess who runs a country has one or multiple assistants(she’s more of an assistant than a maid due to the advice she gives)? I would be more annoyed if she didn’t. Any ruler needs advisers especially in turbulent countries in order to give different viewpoints. Name for me 5 people who ruled without any assistance and were able to have a successful reign. In regards to the fountain and maitenance, well for any country appearances have to be maintained. How do you attract investors or diplomats to your country if even your capital or capitol building looks like it’s in ruin. It’s not like they are having constant lavish parties in which cake is being served all around. Sometimes you have to spend money to make it. Although once again their priority should be the people they serve.

    The Middle East was spared intervention by CB? Setsuna personally got involved in Azadistan. As for Kataron getting indirect support from Seel or Richieria, then why were they in an underground base in the middle of nowhere with outdated technology even for Seel? Just because a place houses terrorists does not mean the government supports it. In fact Kataron you could argue is mostly housed in space, they have a bloody space fleet with space colonies.
    I highly doubt that Seel is considered a threat. As someone on the show mentioned, Seel was not directly attacking the Federation nor had some sort of great army. The King was opposed to the Federation taking control of the ME, which they had started to do earlier. However why couldn’t the Federation have just targeted Seel’s military bases like Richiera’s, instead of the capital? This was obviously done to scare the states into line and at this point, the Federation is just recklessly cleaning up. The ME is more of a roadblock for the Innovators instead of CB (especially CB due to 00) or Kataron.

    There always is a point in seeking a peaceful solution, mainly the prevention of human loss. Well we have yet to see the Federation offer some sort of deal, treaty, or bargain in any capacity. Even the UN before the 4 year gap was going to offer Azadistan access to the solar power in exchange for building a solar elevator, which was the correct move. CB hasn’t been the diplomatic type either but they have tried and work with the three factions in the past, specifically trying to eliminate that other terrorist group which worked. In fact most of this season, CB has been on the run and defensive. I think the attack on the Memento will be the first offensive action they have taken all season. We have yet to see the Federation use any envoys, rather the only person that has had real contact with both sides is Tieria and he considered joining the Innovators or doing something along those lines. The thing that changed his mind was seeing the Memento Mori in action. Also as we have seen look at Saji the moment he left Kataron the Federation beat him(until Pedo-bear came in) to reveal the address of Kataron. They never asked what Kataron wanted or anything like that. The moment they found the base, what did they do? They started killing everyone in there.

    Well to some degree governments are rational even if people behind them may act in an irrational manner at times. Look at the “peaceful democracy” theory in IR, democracies go to war less and part of the reason has to do with the people having a say and the mass is less eager to go to war then maybe the individuals at the top(this is probably why propaganda is the enemy of democracies). Rules and regulations help control human responses. For example, the President may want to go war, he has to follow rules and get support of Congress(even though he can do limited military actions even without them).

    My main point with all of this is to say the Federation is just as flawed as CB. The truly evil people here are the Innovators, the people in Kataron who attack civilian targets, and Wang(I am so glad someone put her in her place) who just wants to see change despite who dies.

    Reply
30. Ian K
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    @Excalibaa1!
    Read what I posted, I’m not taking anyone’s side. Just pointing out that some tactics have drawbacks.

    Still, I suppose you have a point. After 9/11, there were plenty of people who felt that we should bomb the middle east. And there wasn’t a whole lot of public outcry against the atomic bombings in WWII. The key was, CNN wasn’t on the scene to show live footage of the maimed and dying. Considering how much control the Federation apparently has over the media, they could probably sanitize the population from the worst of collateral damage, making it easier for people to stomach it.

    Still, as Crusader pointed out CB & Co is receiving a lot of financial aide (they MUST be to be able to keep the war running), so at least some people on Earth support them outside a few poor countries. And in a country as large as the Federation there must be SOME disaffected peoples who would take any chance to criticize the Federation. Maybe some nearby Federation member-states that that have some sort of ties to the rebellion, such as ethnic or religious connections. And this would be a field day for rebel propagandists. Of course the Federation COULD stifle these protests – but totalitarian governments have a poor track record for keeping their citizens healthy and happy.

    Reply
31. Crusader
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 4:14 am | Permalink

    @Ian K
    I have heard that argument before, and another says that the Japanese gave up once they knew that their non aggression pact with the Soviets killed any hope of a conditional surrender. Even if the Soviets were not of mind to launch August Storm, Halsey’s statement that by the end the Japanese language would only be spoken in hell might have proved prophetic. Remember in the 1940s racism and antisemitism were not universally out of style. They got their conditional surrender and the Emperor kept his throne. Even if there was a CNN at Hiroshima there’s not guarantee that the Japanese would allow the broadcast, nor is there any assurance that CNN would not be as bigoted most of the western world at the time. If there was no surrender forth coming the home islands would be obliterated and the ground campaign in China might have ended with a massive American presence, and no PRC. The what ifs are interesting to say the least.

    The Federation has media control and has provided a comfortable standard of living for all its citizens so long as they are content 00bama can do what he wants. It seems silly for any Federation citizen to pay taxes and compensation to both Kataron and the Federation. Guys like Lyle were all swept out some episodes ago and the majority seems to be in favor of 00bama’s policies. Don’t forget that as long as a people are content the kind of government hardly matters, the Germans were pretty happy with one Adolf in the wake of the depression.

    The Federation isn’t exactly totalitarina they have elections they have a president and a legislature that has provided a decent standard of living even as they steam roll Kataron and their supporters. They are more like the average western democracy today, they rely more on media manipulation than brute force to keep things orderly. It’s not like the average democracy has wholly rejected censorship or refused the right to institute gag orders for the sake of national security.

    @Excalibaa1!
    Yeah the A-Laws are hardly the Titans, they don’t even kill for fun or even kill their own.

    @Jarmel
    With the way the world economy is going I doubt the PRC is on the fast track to having naval power on par with the US. They might get comparable destroyers but if the Falklands War proved anything is that even modern ships were vulnerable to aircraft. No one has naval air power on par with the US Navy. The UN does some good but it is hardly sufficient, it lacks teeth so let’s just leave it at that shall we.

    There is also a distinct difference between having a military base mere meters away in the case of Richieria and having something like Travis AFB which is by all rights one of the most important bases on the west coast a few good miles away from Fairfield. The bloody camp was only a few paces away from the outer perimeter in the case of the Richerians a more proper example would be like setting up a camp at the ECP of NORAD.

    The US population has voted in their congress in a free and fair election, that congress has already slashed the Defense Budget form Cold War Levels and current spending is less that 3% of the US GDP. Cuts have been made, as to whether or not such funds have been used wisely is another matter entirely. If the American population did not want to have the most powerful Navy in the world they could vote in more cuts, however you and I both know how many Americans are fearful of socialism and have little desire to see their taxes being used for the poor in handouts. There is even a major political party that champions that cause. The US can afford to have it’s military and keep enough of the population in good financial standing (though who knows with this recession). The US government does provide some social services like WIC and Welfare, the only reason why it is rather paltry is because most American taxpayers prefer to give every able bodied person a job instead of a handout. We could easily adopt democratic socialism, but the majority of us have elected not to.

    In the case of the US it is not keeping everyone poor and only those in power well off. In Kataron’s case since the only populations that seem to welcome them are almost exclusively ME I suppose that is where they are getting most of their money anyway. It just makes no sense for the average Feddie Citizen to pay Kataron to destroy their own livelihood. Given how stunted Kataron’s activities are within the Federation (Eddie got arrested, Lyle and every European Sleeper agent was flushed out, etc.) I don’t see how it is possible for Kataron to bank roll a space fleet given the efficiency of the Federation security forces. Proof positive of even moderate amounts of disaffected Feddie support to Kataron would be a GN Tau drive, seeing as how Kataron can’t unlock the secrets of that shows how much enthusiasm there is for Kataron, hardly any. Hell even the Soviets who could count of communists every where were able to duplicate the atomic bomb and compromise MI6. Kataron does not represent a majority within the Federation it is a fringe group that rejected the entire scheme and have been plotting for 3 years to destroy it. A year had gone by and they rejected it, hell they probably did not even wait for the next election cycle given how most democracies have terms that last longer than a year.

    Why the hell does Princess Poverty need a maid anyway? All she ever did then was watch TV and take trips around the world to beg for aid which was given. Jihad-kun went to Azadistan to protect his girlfriend, he did not tear Azadistan a new one like he did everywhere else, it was favoritism plain and simple. I agree that leaders need a cabinet, but Princess Poverty did not need help watching TV all day, and heck even Shirin her best adviser was a knuckle dragging moron who essentially declared her hatred of the Federation on the day of 00bama’s first speech. It’s fine to have a fountain, but does it need to be one the whole time when there are no foreign heads of state visiting?

    I don’t think an economic stimulus package would benefit the common people of the ME, again four years ago they rejected the chance to join in. For one it seems those in power have money to burn, leaving that fountain running and hiring a maid for a couch potato is hardly what I call fiscally conservative budgeting. Even when the UN moved in and gave Azadistan a solar plant, it was an Azadistani faction that helped blow it all to hell and took to the streets to make clear how they were not in favor of having anything to do with the UN. Four years ago they could have shared in prosperity under terms that 328 nations found acceptable, they did not like the terms for whatever reasons they had. Their leaders chose their freedom, the freedom to starve. How bad could the terms have been if 328 other nations found it agreeable while one geographic region found it intolerable? Who looks more happy the people inside the Federation or those outside of it?

    What we do have here in the ME of Gundam 00 is a population that is apt to reject foreign influence of any sort, and tolerate the liberal fiscal policies of one couch potato princess and one saber rattling king. We are operating under the assumption that these people are living in poor nations and yet Seel bought some shiny Enacts from the Federation instead of a power plant. The reason why the capital of Seel was targeted was because it was this saber rattling king that was the primary problem along with his inner circle since the King of Seel wielded considerable power it stands to reason that without him Seel’s armed forces would be in disarray because most of their leadership was wiped out. Once Seel’s army was without it’s king regular forces could overwhelm them. The Richierian episode was more odd than anything, it was essentially a move to make the A-Laws look evil for once, nevertheless assuming that Lindt is not a dumbass he had strategic reasons for wiping out that base, maybe it was a logistical hub or maybe the Richierian King was hiding out there. Kataron stated that the Seelian King was antagonizing the Federation and he did not look like a young man by any means, also Seel boasted the most powerful army in the region, they were a force to be reckoned with and were treated as a military threat that needed to be crushed. If Kataron thought that the Feddies would build a big gun and not use it they are indeed stupid. Why waste so much money and effort on the thing if it serves no purpose?

    Also CB did go on the offensive when the busted Haptism and a bunch of Kataron operatives out from prison. Even if CB is preaching to the heavens about ending war, their actions have largely been in Kataron’s favor. Also The Federation already knows what Kataron wants, why bother asking them and toss aside the element of surprise? It makes no military sense. I think you’d rather have this be more like an idealized police raid than a full blown war. Thing is though unless I have overwhelming superiority and am that arrogant I am not going to ask a local baddie to surrender or what he wants, rather I jump the guy, he can either fight and die, or he can toss his weapon aside and tell me later what he wants. Soldiers are not cops we have different rules of engagement. Kindhearted people like you would like war to be a police action where it can be clean. As I understand war, it is far better to not declare war at all if killing makes people uneasy. Just because you don’t see it all on the news doesn’t mean it’s less bloody. The Gulf War in 1991 was a prime example of the media just caring about smart weapons, despite the amount of dumb munitions the coalition used against the Iraqis.

    A treaty is just a piece of paper it is only valuable so longs as all the signatories respect it and honor it. It is very easy to unilaterally discard a treaty, it’s happened before, and more often than you might realize. Even democracies can do some nasty things, after all during the Cold War the West backed a lot of anti-communist regimes in the Third World. The Western Spy agencies were stirring up shit all over the place same with the Soviets. Democracies may declare war less often, but they make plenty use of UN Security council mandates, police actions, mobilizations to protect their citizens abroad, etc.

    Again Sunrise will never show much of the negotiations ever, nevertheless even if the Feddies seek peace given the stance of CB, ME, and Kataron they have the right to do the smart thing and continue operations against all three none of them seem to want to deal. Lindt is still targeting strategic targets and military bases, he is not going out of his way to waste his shots on refugees if he can help it. Each time Lindt has fired it was for strategic and tactical reasons, he simply doesn’t care about his enemies just as his enemies don’t care about his civilians. Again there is plenty of blame to go around for what happened to those refugees, it’s silly to put it all on Lindt.

    The Federation is already in a total war against Kataron and CB they’d be stupid if they treated it like a small skirmish. Kataron declared war on the Federation 3 years ago, two months prior they made clear what they were willing to do to continue the war. They blew up Federation Civilians instead of sending out peace feelers, that is as clear a statement as any about how serious they are. If Kataron wanted peace why blow up Federation Civilians? It’s going to be horrible, but that is what total war is. My own sympathies for the Federation come out largely because they are a practical people, a reasonable people that are not bound by high ideals who have made a decent standard of living where ever they hold sovereignty, and most of all since Kataron never seemed to it a chance with people like Shirin who declared it a failure on day one I can relate more strongly to an embattled flawed democracy (much like the ones we live in) than to a bunch of terrorists who have demonstrated the capacity to attack purely civilian targets as part of its ideological war. No the Federation is not going to do the right thing by fighting in this war, if they were nice they’d peaceably dissolve their union because the vocal minority in Kataron wishes it so, and would give the ME all the handouts they want. Such is not the case and the majority in the Federation is not going to resort to appeasement of some shady terror group to avoid war.

    Reply
32. Nazarielle
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    “Part of me thinks that Louise should be the main lead from now on”

    A-fucking-men.

    Reply
33. Jarmel
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    @Crusader

    The way things have been going, we all are going to be broke in a short while. In regards to a Chinese invasion of Japan, its success would depend on a multitude of factors such as location of the American navy, the composition of the Navy patrolling the area, and how serious China was Besides the Yokohama naval base is being phased out. The Chinese would probably attempt a blitzkreig strategy and go for landing troops and not a drawn out naval affair. Once a sizable portion of the Chinese army landed, which probably would happen as the distance between China and Japan is only 750 miles, it would be remarkably hard for the US to take the land back due to the overwhelming size of the Chinese army. BTW China has a pretty good stock of anti-aircraft missiles. This particular topic is pointless though as China would more realistically try and go for Taiwan way before anything happens to Japan and then the US would be at high alert in the Pacific. This goes with my point that governments do think rationally, sometimes anyway, and don’t always go with payback.

    I was actually thinking of Hunter AFB which is right outside Savannah, GA and if a nuke went off, there is a good chance part of Savannah could get wiped out too.
    For the Richerians, that military base might have been one of many that they had. We don’t know anything about their military or politics. The refugee camp might have been run by the military so that they could provide food and water to the displaced people. It’s not as if Richeria sent out communications to the Federation saying we have civilians here therefore you can’t harm us. It is only a meat shield if both sides know that a)one party has a gun pointed in their face and b)that same party uses innocent people to prevent that gun being fired. This is similar to being at a party with a well known official that has had public death threats against him and a bomb goes off killing both the official and the regular people around him. Richeria had no clue that Seel had been wiped out or that the Federation was destroying military installations. Richeria itself did not even know it was at war with the Federation, the only one who had put up an antagonistic position was Seel.
    We spend 20 percent of our income tax on national defense, which is equivelant to a health care system that does not even cover everybody. Remember that we live in a Republic therefore what the people want does not always interpret into what happens(thank the lobbyists for that). People are not particularly interested in the budget itself but rather how the budget affects them. Trust me 20 years down the road when Social Security costs and health care costs are skyrocketing, people will start to care alot more about the budget and how much we spend on the military. We have roughly 12 percent of the US population living below the poverty line(I have a nasty feeling that number took a particularly sharp turn upwards recently) and while it is remarkbly low in regards to other countries, tell the people who are starving that the US can’t afford to trim down a few airplanes (particularly stuff like the F-22 Raptor which costs 137.5 million a pop) because we might face an enemy that can match our airforce. The US government indeed does not increase benefits for the unemployed because it increases the unemployment rate and duration of unemployed. However the government can use that money to increase education quality or create new jobs.
    In regards to wealth distribution the US is just as bad as everyone else. The top 1 percent of people in the US has 33.4 percent of the wealth. The next 19 percent has 51 percent and the bottom 80 percent has a paltry 15.5 percent. Now for Kataron we have no clue what is going on in the rest of the world. AS someone else mentioned, since the ME is now essentially broke, someone else must be funding Kataron(space equipment is not cheap). Kataron also has a large extensive network in space as well as shown by the first episode and their (now decimated)space fleet. Kataron could have been using the ME as a base since all the countries there were either in turmoil or busy with their own problems to eliminate Kataron. As for the GN drives there might be other problems with producing them such as access to natural materials which a terrorist network would have problems with. As we can see the Federation is closer to a totalitarian state (controlled press and no tolerance for dissenting opinions) than a democracy, especially since we have yet to see any sort of elections.
    Well we don’t know the role Marina had in the government and whether it was similar to the current UK system where the queen has no direct authority, the US where the President can influence but not directly create legislation, or Iraq where the leader has all the power. Besides who wants to watch someone create a piece of legislation and watch it go through the legal process. We also know that last season she did try and get the solar elevators there however as seen later there is(well was now) a major rift in the country which severely limited her powers as ruler. In fact her government was closer to a coalition government and as we all know, coalition governments have a track record for getting nothing accomplished.
    In regards to CB going on the offensive, that was more along the lines of a rescue operation. CB was trying to retrieve a fellow comrade and then retreat. That attack had no particular point of trying to destroy an A-Laws facility or wipe out Federation forces(hence them not destroying the building and the use of the mist to distract the opposing forces while they ran away). The Federation is treating this along the lines of total warfare(which it isn’t) instead of anti-terrorism which roots out the people and not blowing up the countries where the terrorists are hiding out. The thing is the Federation does have overwhelming superiority with their Gundams, laser satellites, large conventional forces, and tactical superiority and Kataron knows this(well the Gundams, conventional forces, and tactical superiority parts). This is also similar to the Second Boer War in that Britain(or the Federation in this case) faced guerilla styled warfare and their response was a scorched earth policy and forcing everyone into concentration camps. It worked but alot of innocent people died that just wanted to go about their lives. This case is even worse because uninvolved countries(Richeria) are getting dragged into this and innocent people like the refugees are killed for no reason or warning.
    As for the economic stimulus it’s fine if the Federation doesn’t give money or anything to the ME. You could also make the argument that it was in the Federation’s rights to police the ME since it was a particular danger to the Federation. However when the Federation starts to disassemble the countries and force them to join the Federation is imperialistic. As we have seen, the people do not want to join the Federation and democracies only work if people want to join in or want a particular freedom. The Federation is less of a democracy and more of an oligarchy with the Innovators at the top.
    Essentially nuking a capital to get rid of one person is a little extreme. They should have tried regular bombing and if that didn’t work use the laser satellite. That way they atleast tried to avoid killing civilians.As for the Richierian incident, they mentioned that this was the start of the new Federation policy of wiping out all ME military bases by blasting them, no declaration of war or warning. This follows together with the Innovators plan of having complete control of the world’s military and government.
    I could make the argument that treaties are much more relevant in current times than the past since things like economic sanctions or military blockades can now be enforced. While treaties can still be brokem, it is severely looked down upon, and as seen by Russia also breaking their peacefire treaty with Georgia can possibly result in severe punishment(assuming that the US had the balls to do anything). Democracies do protect their citizens but are less likely to declare war on a foreign country and engage in total war due to the masses and established rules in place, although once they get going democracies are absolutely relentless.

    So since you assume that Sunrise hasn’t shown the Federation using negotiations, why do you assume that Kataron hasn’t tried anything, maybe even small concessions? It’s fine if you don’t care about your enemies but either have the decency to announce your at war with them(look where Pearl Harbor got Japan) or try not to be reckless enough to fire WMD’s near innocent and uninvolved civilian centers and maybe resort to good old conventional bombings which are more accurate.

    We don’t know the details of the civilian bombings or the quality of life inside the Federation. We both are starting to use alot of hypotheticals since we don’t know the full history of Kataron, CB, or the Federation. I propose we suspend this debate until after ep.25 when we fully know what Kataron, the Federation, and CB has and will do. Otherwise we are just guessing at their past actions and motivations(I would like to see the A-Laws fight the Innovators but who knows).

    Reply
34. Kaioshin Sama
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    @Excalibaa1!: So wait, you aren’t even watching the show and yet you think you’re in any sort of position to give an argument about what is happening in it and have people give a damn about it let alone ever agree with it? First of all no wonder everything you say sounds identical to what Crusader has said and you seem to share the same opinions and perspectives on absolutely everything since as it turns out your opinion actually is just Crusader’s (lol), and second of all, I don’t think you’re in any position to judge the story as “sucking” if all you have to go on is what Crusader is saying in his summaries, which even he admits is made up for the lulz. That’s just me though.

    Personally I don’t know why anybody would be still trying to hold onto the notion that the A-LAWS and their Innovator allies are still right in everything they do and CB is wrong in everything they do unless they just don’t care about what the show is actually portraying. Are we still sure it’s not the person that argues such a thing that is portraying the whole conflict in terms of black & white. I mean as opposed to the show itself which has done everything to show that it’s a case of excessive and ever escalating conflict itself being the enemy. Or if you want to get technical, the Innovator’s who are the architects of pretty much every major conflict and bad thing that has happened to anybody since the series started. I don’t see how you could see it any other way unless you’re either not actually watching the show and getting your theories second hand like Excalibaa1! claims to be or are just willing yourself not to see and admit that it is the case.

    Reply
35. Crusader
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    @Jarmel
    Remeber Ginin’s finacee she was blown to bits in a terror attack two months prior to Memento Mori firing a single shot. I think if Kataron wanted to negotiate they would have not even carried out that terror bombing in the first place. Also I don’t see much difference between firebombing the Seelian Capital or glassing the place. At least with the latter death is swift and there won’t be nearly as many maimed and injured who will be condemned to s slow death as Seel’s resources will be stretched to the limit. People will still die I don’t see any merit to argue which way is more morally sound when the end result is essentially the same.

    00bama had never shown his face prior to the last ep of S1 so if a political newcomer can rise to the position of President of the Federation beating out the old guard who controlled the Union, HRL, and AEU I think there were elections, they just don’t call them with alarming regularity, even in the US we only elect a president every four years, while in a parliamentary system the ruling party can call them when the political climate is favorable. Media manipulation is not undertaken by totalitarian regimes alone (town hall meetings), and given how the only dissenting group we have seen is Kataron which uses violence I don’t think anyone should tolerate any dissenting group that uses violence as a means to gain power. It can be argued that the FBI suppression of the KKK (COINTELLPRO) in the 1960s had plenty of controversy attached, however few would say that the crack down on the KKK was entirely wrong. At the time victims of the KKK were generally denied justice in the court system in the South, if the FBI had not fought dirty you might still have a powerful Klan influence in the South some years after the 1960s.

    I think that there is always room for dissent, but Kataron went one step further and added violence to the mix, when that happened they forfeited any right to free speech and became terrorists who used bombings as a means to intimidate others into following their lead and giving into their demands. They crossed that line and as such it doesn’t matter how pretty their ideology is, as a violent group they have to be dealt with as a criminal group. Communism is a fine idea in theory, but it would not be allowable for the local communist party to start bombing malls and shops because they disagree with capitalism. Kataron is not merely dissenting, they are violently dissenting, and I think that is the point you are glossing over in excusing their terror bombings while harping on WMD use.

    We know that the quality of life in the Federation is good because even CB said that public opinion would be with the Feddies because they provided a stable economy and kept its citizenry fairly well off. The Boer Wars are an excellent example of how dirty anti-guerrilla operations can be, but it is also one of the few cases where the guerrillas were defeated. It’s a dirty kind of war, you can fight clean and lose, or you can fight dirty and win. The British Empire chose to win, and the goal of any nation at war is to win. There is no second place in war, and because winning is that important morality and niceties will suffer.

    Those SAMs are made in China and given the track record for Chinese arms abroad, they aren’t boasting 100% kills. Secondly 750 miles is pretty far and with DoD GPS and the logistical nightmare that any amphibious assault of that size requires an Communist Invasion would still be hard to pull off without any Naval harrassment from Japan and the US. Taiwan would probably be the first point of advance, but even then it will take some time for the small PLA Navy to put enough men and material onto the island before carrier battle groups arrive. I can tell you that moving a tank and other such heavy equipment is a huge challenge, its not enough to put men and machines onto shore they need a constant stream of supply even if the PLA resorts to looting to get what they need. Again 750 miles is a huge logistical tail that will be vulnerable unless the PLA Navy can provide a massive sea lift no seen since D-Day. If the Arab Israeli wars proved one thing it is that modern war requires a huge expenditure of ammunition, and in the case of the 1973 war neither side could have continued to fight without the support of their supper power allies who had to airlift the ammunition they needed.

    The only reason why the F-22 is so expensive per plane is that is spent decades in development and when the final order came it was for a small number of planes, it did not benefit from economies of scale. If the USAF was allowed to buy more F-22s (which is strategically sound considering how few are being brought in) the per unit cost would be much lower. The F-22 program had been haggled over incessantly since the end of the Cold War, Rumsfeld canceled a lot of projects because he felt that they were conventional weapons that had no use in the low intensity conflicts, but now the strategic situation has changed Russia has power and is willing to use it, the rise of the PRC is also of some concern. Suffice to say the issue has less to do with the actual development cost, but red tape which the civilian government put into place. I know how DoD procures things and honestly we pay way more for pens than in the civilian sector because we have to buy “Made in the USA” and from Industries for the Blind (JWOD). Moreover the civilian contractors that we use are not charging market price, they are being subsidized at every step. Sad thing is Government overpays for everything. So before you decry the Defense Budget consider for a moment just how much red tape we have to go through and how many markups the private sector can impose. Again we over pay for everything in the US government.

    Reply
36. Lawl
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    If Ali can scratch 00-Raiser Trans-AM mode even once, it solidifies him as the greatest non-hack (JESUS MODE PEOPLE) pilot of the Gundam metaverse. Bob really can’t contend, since he can’t do squat in his Ahead yet his new suit will most likely be nearly if not just as godly making the achievement not as epic.

    Let’s see if Sunrise is willing to make history with 00. GOOOO FUJIKEI, YOUR MANY DEATHS IN OTHER SERIES DESERVES SOMETHING LUL.

    Reply
37. Highman
    Posted December 23, 2008 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    @Jarmel and Crusader

    Everyone calm the heck down, this is just a show and damn Crusader you may need keep away computer because your always posting like hell but sooner or later you I’ll may have to keep you check. Gosh Dangit!

    @Nazirielle

    Any my other mind thinks that Louise has just upgraded her status to the Final Boss of this series, If she’s keep acting this up! DAMN

    Reply
38. bakaneko
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    > Ribbons tasked his innovators with capturing Gundam 00 Raiser instead of hiring Prince Ali to do it.

    I don’t think the Innovators consider *any* human competent at all—Prince Ali or not. So, when tasked to capture what he must by now consider as the central piece of Aeolis’s plan, Ribbons would not entrust the job to any inferior beings other than of his own kind.

    Of course I do agree with you that Ali is probably the better man for the job, since he has something that none of the Innovators do: a lifetime of experience of treacheries. Treacheries that enable him to mind-swipe followers and pwn the three Thrones effortlessly.

    Reply
39. Kaioshin Sama
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    @Highman: Hey at least we’re all interacting a little this week and having a constructive discussion instead of just sharing gripes and ripping each other up. Jarmel has helped make this one of the best blog post commentaries here in a long time I’ll say that much.

    Reply
40. Valmanway
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    In all honesty, I sympathise with both sides; the Federation and Celestial Being and Kataron. All the factions have their own morally good and morally bad points. In all the Gundam series, I actually think S2 has done the moral ambiguity better.

    Though, isn’t Kataron made up of ex-Union/HRL/AEU members? What does Crusader think about that?

    Reply
41. AJfebuary9
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Jihad-kun is owned T_T

    Reply
42. Jarmel
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    @ Crusader

    I’m not approving of Kataron’s actions but I do understand them(well atleast the people opposed to the Federation’s takeover of the ME. As I mentioned earlier, we don’t know the specifics of the attack, they could have been targeting a civilian communications building and did it at some odd hour but someone was there. The only operation we have seen Kataron essentially take by itself in the course of the anime is the attack on MM. You don’t see the difference between specific bombing of buildings(I wasn’t talking about firebombing which is designed to kill as many people as possible) and nuking a place? As we established earlier, air superiority is crucial and I highly doubt that the Federation was going to have any problems maintaining that. We don’t know the extent and size of Seel and whether they import or export material goods. Seel seemed to have a decent economy and could have survived the bombings of certain buildings with the equivalent of the Small Diameter Bomb(or SDB) or the death of the king(we also don’t know what their succession practice was). However very few countries could survive financially the nuking of their capital city. Also who benefits financially with taking over Seel’s destroyed markets? Besides tell the families of people in the capital that it was better for all of the people in the capital to die then the country be strained for a little period of time while they rebuild their economy.
    This seems more of Sunrise being lazy then evidence of there actually being elections. Remember if the Federation is 4 years old and if it was anything like the US government then elections would be either taking place or just recently took place yet we have seen no evidence of that. We have not seen the President worrying about the press (partly because the press it seems is controlled) or what the mass of Federation civvies think. The Federation could have decided in order to not show favoritism to one faction or another they would have someone from outside the three factions lead them. We don’t know who are Kataron’s true leaders because as they mentioned Klaus was something like the regional director so I assume that it is an international movement. As we have seen in the US with the backlash against the idea of the North American Union, not everyone is happy with globalization. Cracking down on anti-terrorists is perfectly fine but as you mentioned the FBI did not engage in total warfare against the KKK. BTW COINTELLPRO has some controversy in regards due to the Civil Rights movement and stuff like that(one could argue that it was used as a tool by the government to keep all dissenters in line).
    Well thats where I and the founding fathers of America disagree with you. The founding fathers believed that if the current government was committing atrocities or not giving you your basic rights as a human being, you have the right to bear arms against your government, some would argue that is the whole point for the second amendment, (although Congress and the Supreme Court later ripped this out). As we have no clue how some of those 328 countries signed the treaty and whether they were forced into the treaty. I wouldn’t be surprised considering the treatment of the ME. You can judge a government by its’ actions moreso then its’ words and looking at the people leading the Federation, I have no doubt that the ME is not the only atrocity committed. I don’t think the Innovators care how many people they kill as long as they get their desired outcome.
    Have you ever thought that CB might be misinformed with Federation propoganda? Both CB and Kataron don’t have the greatest intelligence network as seen by MM being built right under both of their noses. Also compared to the previous years, I’m sure some people would be happy about the lack of fighting between the three different factions. Just because an economy is stable doesn’t mean there isn’t a large amount of poor or people who lost their political voice. Part of the reason one could argue that their economy is stable is takeover of regions and military buildup(similar to Germany in the 1930s). It took alot of people to build that satellite and alot of money. How many years do you think it’s going to take before the economy crashes with no enemy to fight or regions to take over? I wonder how much each of those custom Gundams, battleships, autonomous battle bots, and satellites cost(including maintenance)? Using your rational you could justify every mass murder during a war and possibly every genocide in human history. The Russians pillaging the Germans in the aftermath of WW2 was for the survival of the Soviet Union since the Russian economy was destroyed. You could justify the Americans nuking every single city in Japan so they wouldn’t have to deal with the country. Eventually a country has to draw a line in a war and say that they won’t cross it, even if it means they lose some of their own troops or even a war. Otherwise why didn’t we nuke China in the Korean War?
    You don’t need a 100 percent kill ratio to distract the US military long enough to land troops. 750 miles is not that large when you have to defend it in a hurry with limited troops and supplies from an entire navy that just needs to land one sizable contingent. If there is one hole in the defensive line then Japan could be screwed. You would get harassment but it is feasible(I’m sure a few Chinese commanders have probably created a few plans just as the Japanese probably created a few defensive plans). It is possible just not likely given the state of things.
    Besides you wouldn’t want tanks or anything with heavy machinery due to Japan’s mountainy nature. You would want air(not likely) and land troops(much more important since the Chinese have such a large advantage here). There would also be the possibility of the Russians getting involved, why do you think they did those joint military operations in 2005, in any invasion done by the Chinese since that would essentially by the start of WW3. The Chinese have also recently increased their military budget and been buying Russian equipment.
    You’re missing my point with the F-22. I could have used the MIM-104 Patriot system or the M1 Abrams tank. I was pointing out that you could make a logical argument in any country that resources could be shifted anyway from the military to help feed the poor in that country or redirect it to health services or education(which desperatly needs money in the USA). BTW Rumsfield more expanded and modernized the army then retooled it. It seems Gates is cutting back production on the larger scaled weapons of war such as fighter jets and focusing on anti-guerilla projects. Well it’s a little hard to feel sorry for the US military when they allow monopolies such as Halliburton to overcharge them and give exclusive deals to certain contractors.

    Reply
43. Crusader
    Posted December 24, 2008 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    @Highman
    Don’t mind us.

    @Valmanway
    If they are former Union, HRL, and AEU (ie. not Middle Easterners using surplus uniforms) then they are traitors who have launched terror attacks against their old friends for the sake of their new ones, and for the sake of their own arrogant ideals. They are essentially Timothy McVeighs.

    @AJfebuary9
    And HOW!

    @Jarmel
    Who was it that elected policy makers that favored Halibuton in the first place? Moreover was it not a freely elected congress that approved those people back in ye olde days? There is plenty of blame to go around, you seem hell bent on crucifying DoD for everything that is wrong with the US government. Rumsfeld didn’t modernize nothing the Stryker Brigades were Shinseki’s pet project, moreover Gates assumed office after the procurement of the F-22 was finalized. Given the budget cuts of DoD if we got all the money we asked for there would be a fleet of F-22s, a new service rifle, and the M-109 would have had a successor by now. Instead we are upgrading older equipment because we have limited budget. Even if DoD gets a sizable slice of the pie, we don’t get enough to do what ever the hell we want. Give us a bigger budget and we won’t have to decide between weapons for conventional war and low intensity conflicts. If 750 miles seems like a short distance to you then I think you know nothing about the horrors of logistics, or the difficulties of sealift. I have gone through simply packing stuff in garrison for OCONUS, and let me tell you it’s not that simple.

    It was precisely because COINTELLPRO broke the Klan in certain states that it was controversial instead of being out and out bad. It was not the Civil Rights movement that broke the KKK’s violent streak, it was the FBI that intimidated the KKK into infighting and suspicion destroying any coordinated assault against the busers. The point is that you cannot always fight violence with love and peace, if passivity could have solved the KKK issue it would not have lasted until the 1960s, hell they still persist.

    You will find that anything can be justified and that something is right or worng depending on the spirit of the times. Racism was fashionable once and had a “scientific” basis, don’t be so high minded as to think your morality is the gold standard. The Federation is at war, an exercise that is hostile to morality.

    You sympathize with Kataron and try and excuse their bombings, yet you automatically assume that Kataron is telling the truth in all matters, the difference between Kataron and the Federation in their military industrial complexes is that at least in the Federation they went through a legislature, and if Goodman was bitching about budget, they were not getting all that they were asking for implying that the Feddie Parliament controls the purse strings. We only have Kataron’s word to go on that the Federation is oppressive, and CB makes it look like they were being utilitarians by actually giving a damn about their citizen’s well being, I don’t think we can trust what Kataron says given how they are apt to use terror bombings and fail to mention it, hell they didn’t have much problems killing civilians on the other side, and yet these are the people you trust? Who the hell elected Kataron and approved their budget and the bankrolling of a space fleet instead of farm subsidies? Even if the Federation is not democratic, according to you, Kataron and CB are less so and worse. Just because CB and Kataron claim to be fighting for a better world doesn’t make them right. FARC fights for the poor, and yet we all call it bullshit. At least the Federation can build a better society compared to the Kataron projects like Azadistan. No society is not without it’s problems, but just because there are problems doesn’t mean you need a revolution every month to correct them. What is so great about Azadistani society than the one the Feddies have made? The freedom to starve? The freedom to be racist against the Kurds? The freedom to pay for a princess who watches TV all day?

    Every society has poverty it is only when it is rampant and affects the majority of the population that something is truly wrong. No society that ever existed was without poverty or a wealth gap, even if there is poverty in the Federation (which we haven’t seen any evidence of) it is by no means rampant. There are still poor people in the EU and nobody condemns them for being evil. Not even Maoism eliminated the gap in income, and even then there were other problems…

    Why is it permissible to assume that the Feddies have done so much bad without proof, and yet when Kataron bombs some civilians to hell we have to investigate…? Again The Feddies are not apt to use brute force if they don’t have to, you say 328 nations were bullied into the federation, and yet Kataron has been expelled from all of them and herded into the Middle East and the depths of space. If Kataron cannot count on even local disaffected support, how does that make them a majority or even demonstrate that they have much support in the Federation at all? If Kataron and CB don’t have a clear picture how does that make terror bombings and attacks on the Feddies justified? Kataron and CB chose to be armed groups with agendas that were hostile to the Federation, it makes sense that they have bank rolled weapons and the A-Laws to stop them. They still remember the Trinities and have no reason to tolerate a terrorist groups bent on its destruction. Why should the Feddies disarm and while Kataron keeps its weapons? The Regular Feddie Army is similarly equipped as Kataron, so its not like Kataron is all that weak in the first place. The Feddies played it smart and used a tailor made CT force with the best weapons the Federation had to offer to beat the crap out of Kataron. What’s wrong with battlebots? Each one can kill terrorists in a fortified position without risking lives. Assault into constricted terrain is especially bloody, use of battlebots at least indicates that they don’t want a high casualty rate on their side at least. In the Case of the A-Laws part of the reason why they are better equipped is because Louise is using he Halevy fortune to help bankroll the whole deal, even Ribbons considers her support to be important, and Wang of CB helped pay for Memento Mori as well. It’s not just the Feddie Taxpayer that is paying for all the schwag, Louise did it out of a need for Justice against those who wronged her, and Wang of CB is doing it for kicks.

    Reply
44. Lawl
    Posted December 25, 2008 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    @bakaneko yeah agreeable, except for one point. I’m not using speculation or subjective terms for this argument like say, that the Innovators lose to Ali due to Ali having more experience. That is irrelevant because it isn’t solid proof.

    The only solid proof that is fair is how Bring took on Fatty MK2 and did not even scratch the blubbersuit while Ali took on both Gimp 00 and Fatty and managed to nearly scrap the Fatso. Regardless of “flukes” and what not, battle performance should not be ignored because unlike CB who is more “EMOOOTIONAALL FEELING” driven, Innovators are driven by facts, numbers, and Veda. There is no way Veda calculated Bring as outperforming Ali after having the input of both battles so far, so would that mean that Ribbons is a gimp who still holds bias?

    The only possible reason is Ribbons knowing exactly what WOULD happen if Ali took 00-Raiser. There wouldn’t be a earth left to rule over =P otherwise Ribbons is a moron.

    Of course, it’s unfair to judge Revival due to him never taking part in actual gundam combat besides 00-raiser. Highly doubt 00 alone would have been able to dodge the giant melting beam Gadessa can fire. But never the less, a gundam’s arsenal usually shows the character’s strengths, hence why I view the Innovators are nothing more than specialists. And if we are to view the mastery of variety in weapons, it’s damn logical who is #1 though Bob’s specialization is at a point where we won’t be surprised if he can send GN-RASENGANLUL out when 00-raiser activates with his Bushido spirit T_T

    Of course, this is all subject to change as we can have Haro in a ball suit defeat Bob in the next episode and there’s nothing you can do about it. So oh wellz.

    Reply
45. Jarmel
    Posted December 25, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    @Crusader
    Oh I know that there are many broken parts in the US government. The Health Department is underfunded,has an inefficient covering system, and doesn’t even treat the few doctors who take HMO’s with respect. The Education system is essentially broken as it is underfunded and taking the wrong approach with No Child Left Behind. The EPA is useless. Congress and Senate has horrible leadership, especially Reid who can’t do anything. Bush is just Bush, there is nothing I can say that 50 people have more eloquently expressed my views. However nobody likes to hear you talk about tragedy. It’s just the DoD is easier to point at in regards to spending as other departments there are more political and social effects to consider. You have to remember as a Republic, not all the views of the people are represented. As you mentioned not only totalitarian states use propaganda. As for Rumsfield modernizing, you could point at the B-1B bomber. He also said “Once your airplane fleet, for example, gets old, you can keep it in the air but you have to spend a lot more money on spare parts and there’s a lot more down time, so therefore you have to have more airplanes to get the same number of sorties”. Yes Gates was already in office however he is cutting production of the F-22 by the end of the fiscal year as he favors the F-35(although he might be open to buying a few more). Also the Chinese bought the Minsk in 1998 and the Kiev in 2000 from Russia. The Chinese are also along with upping their military budget by 17.8 percent, have been stockpiling short range ballistic missiles(probably for Taiwan). Also 750 is high, I don’t know the exact number as that is the distance from Tokyo to the Eastern border of China.

    In regards to COINTELPRO, yes in some regards it was a success and at times you have to use force(although sometimes this doesn’t work either, look at the IRA). However there are reports of the FBI going after Civil Rights Leaders and the woment rights movements(according to an estimate based on FBI records, 15 percent was spent on stuff like the KKK and the other 85 percent was on stuff like the Civil Rights Movement, women rights, and the NAACP. Sometimes using violence just escalates a possibly volatile situation(there is a possibilty that American history would have played out much differently if there haven’t been a Battle of Concord or the Boston Massacre).

    I agree that anything can be justified and that depending on the times, morality can be different. However does that mean we let pedophiles (hey the Greeks did it) and rapists go? We have to use our current value and moral system to make the best calls we can, even if later those values are different otherwise no law or court system would exist.

    You are absolutely right and for that I blame Sunrise. I would like to see the life of an average Federation citizen or see how their government works. The people elected Kataron if the Federation was being abusive and oppressive and the people were not standing against the government. I (and the Founding Fathers of America too I hope) would say that their government is being oppressive then it is the peoples’ right and duty to overthrow said government. Of course this argument applies to people that have either experienced or seen the Federation being oppresive. The members of Kataron overthrowing the Federation just because they don’t like it(which makes no sense), they are no better than Ali(well just a little bit). I’m not justifying Kataron’s or CB’s behavior(especially Kataron) partly because I have no clue as to the motives of both their leaders or the full list as to what Kataron has done. However saying that just because the other parties are wrong does not make you any righter just wrong as well. We have no clue what the Federation has done in the past,if they have been a perfect government with no fighting, takeovers, mass murders, then Kataron has no argument to fight them(however with the Innovators, who have been shown to have a disdain for humans, this is extraordinarily unlikely. Do you honestly see the Innovators ever using negotiation or not just eliminating political enemies?).
    Looking at our current economy and comparing it to the Federation, there will be some countries much better than all the rest. It is virtually if not near impossible for all countries to be having a high standard of living. The US profits off of countries such as Haiti and Mexico where labor and capital is cheap. 50 percent of the Federation might be well off while the other 50 might not be doing so hot. We have no clue as to the unemployment rate, people living near the poverty line, or real capital per GDP.

    Exactly! You have been assuming that the Federation has had motives or reasoning for everything they do. I have just been saying that all parties are guilty to some degree and it up to watcher to determine where they draw the line. We don’t know the location of all of Kataron’s bases. We can assume they have a world wide network since they were talking about spreading information regarding the ME to the people in the Federation, that would require operatives and bases everywhere. We should be investigating the motives and leadership of all parties(we have no clue who leads Kataron, we don’t know what Schenberg is up to, and it seems Ribbons is doing his own thing at this point). As I have said I would like the disarmament of A-Laws(Federation can keep their stuff), Kataron, CB, and the Innovators dead. As for the battlebots, that is perfectly fine, if it can keep an average soldier from dying that is fine. It should be intelligent enough though to recognize when someone is surrendering(even if it was a trick it wouldn’t matter as the it takes like two C4 packs to blow the bloody things up) or if the person is a child. As we have seen they have no ID recongization software and are killing machines. Unless the Halevy foundation and Wang are made out of gold and are equivalent to Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, I highly doubt that they alone had enough capital to build a laser death ray in space without Federation tax money. How they want to waste their money is their own business, although they should have spent that money on some custom suits and maybe some training.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    Reply
46. Crusader
    Posted December 26, 2008 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    @Jarmel
    Merry Christmas to you too.

    The budget is finite, and in deciding what is most important it seems that for now the growing threat of the PRC and the rise of Russia with teeth is cause for much more worry than things like the EPA. I am not saying its right, but if that is was the majority of people allow the situation to be no one has the right to force them along a different path.

    COINTELPRO had its genesis in fighting off Communist Party and the KKK, only later was it used to attack other groups not all of whom were paragons and bastions of virtue. The Nation of Islam is not without its controversy and given the current leader I hesitate to say the man is all that trustworthy or all that noble. The Black Panther Party was not in the business of racial integration when it started out, and the New Left was dallying in some dangerous stuff and looking up to such folks like Mao Zedong for good government… The FBI was not in the right, but neither were their confirmed targets, speculation is so far without conclusive proof. If you are looking for a right you will not find it.

    This talk of revolution for small slights is simply irresponsible, Kataron was not trying to form a consensus with any one. They are a minority who had taken it upon themselves to attack the majority in an effort to force them into an arrangement which they the minority find favorable. I doubt the founding fathers would have liked to see the minority taking up arms in order to rob the majority of their political voice. I think that is the point you are glossing over. Kataron is not trying to talk to the average Feddie, Kataron is targeting them and blowing them to hell. A minority has certain rights but it does not have the right to use violence against the majority every time things do not go their way.

    The Gundam 00 world according to Sunrise has produced a Federation where Solar Power has provided every one with enough to get by, not even Taribia last season showed any signs of poverty then and they were part of the Union. So until Sumeragi and that whole montage of Feddie paradise is proven wrong, we cannot say that there is definitely poverty when there is no evidence of it, there is plenty of evidence that the ME is poor. As to the exact wealth of Wang and Louise. Wang has mansions across the globe and doesn’t work for a living, I suppose she is very wealthy if even other rich people envy her. Louise on the other had did help bankroll Gadessa, GARazzo, presumably Arche, and the Trilobite suffice to say as the sole heiress after Nena’s intervention on her life I suppose she has some very deep pockets, lets also keep in mind that Louise is not living the life of luxury and is still serving a commission in the A-Laws, with Louise we can at least surmise that she devoted the entire Halevy fortune for the sake of revenge, and is still earning money through her commission.

    I doubt any one is really sure what Kataron’s big beef with the Federation is, all they have bitched about was being denied Solar Power as they are not part of the Federation, and having people like Shirin on board who hated the Federation since day one is giving me a sense that they would tolerate a Federation at all. So far the story seems that Shirin hated the Federation on the day of its founding, the ME declined to join, the Feddeies did not feel like exporting their Solar Energy to non-memebers, Kataron started arming after a year (Klaus’ first base was built three years ago), The A-Laws were formed to counter them (again they seem to be new, recruitment wise and budget wise), war happened with Kataron bombing Feddie Civilians and the Feddies demolishing opposing military bases and command centers regardless of enemy civilian casualties.

    I don’t think that Kataron can be considered political dissenters after they chose terrorism as a means to get their way. Had they declined the use of terror tactics and tried to convince the majority through dialogue then by all means they had some rights as a minority. However like I said before, that line was crossed and in my opinion they forfeited those rights and given how they elected to resort to terrorism, they have chosen total war.

    Pleasant as great AI sounds the breakthrough even now is very distant, and while IFF would solve a lot of problems, there are privacy issues with fitting everyone with IFF. Question is would you yourself consent to having a government microchip or nanomachine implanted or otherwise on your person for a significant part of the day if not 24/7/365? In my experience the answer has almost always been no.

    Kataron is not hostile only to the Innovators, they are hostile to the entire Federation and demonstrated that they do regard Feddie Civilians as legitimate targets. Their aim is not a mere victory at the ballot box but the wholesale destruction of the Federation, and they are actively attacking all Federation citizens. That is my problem with these guys they are not merely asking for freedom, they have had it in the Middle East for four years and chose to use that freedom to attack the Federation for three years, their goal is not co-existence or reform of any sort. They want to tear the Federation down and claim the Orbital Elevators for their own use. So far it seems that the Federation has been reacting for most of the past three years, only now is a massive offensive rolling through the ME and scouring Kataron from every inch of dirt.

    I can at least understand what Lindt was doing in firing his ion cannon. He targeted an enemy capital to cripple Seel, he blasted a military base in Richieria, and wasted an enemy flotilla in a total war situation that held civilians on both sides as permissible targets (not right, but Kataron was doing the same thing two months prior, Lindt rather be wrong and win rather than right and lose in a war he didn’t even start). Lindt at least makes military sense, what I cannot understand is what Kataron hoped to gain, other than terror and intimidation, by blowing up Ginin’s fiance. Kataron went out of its way to kill Feddie civilians, Lindt is killing civilians who are co-located with targets of military and strategic value. I’d rather side with Lindt who isn’t going out of his way to kill civilians in contrast to Kataron which does.

    Back in ye olde days when there were Kings and nobility in Europe, nobles could get away with plenty of things and not much would come of it. Of course back then there was a belief that God had granted these people the divine right to rule. I am not saying it is permissible now, but at one time or another there were instances of things that we find abhorrent today were once permissible.

    In regards to Capitalist activities in Mexico, the flip side of it is that if those jobs were all brought back to the US, what is to be done with the laid off Mexican workers? What assurance do they have that they will find other jobs that paid better? Nonetheless given the current economic climate is it not better to have a low paying job than no job at all? Given the rhetoric of the party in power, perhaps those days have come to an end. Again with the current situation I’d rather have a low paying job than no job at all.

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47. Jarmel
    Posted December 27, 2008 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    @ Crusader
    Well you’re right to a degree. Ideally what the people want would happen, however this is not always the case(see the bailout bill for evidence). Sometimes our representatives have to do stuff that maybe unpopular but beneficial to the country, our founding fathers were afraid of a direct democracy thus we have a republic(the electoral college is also evidence of this).

    I would add another qualifier in there. I would say that some of their targets were peaceful while some are slightly shadier. You could say that what the program was originally intended for became diverged and they started to broaden their idea of dissent.

    Once again we don’t know vital bits of information such as the poverty rate, the balance of power of countries within the Federation, real capital per GDP, or things like human rights or non-discrimination. If the poverty rate or unemployment is relatively low and the other countries joined the Federation willingly without any outside pressure as well as no other major problems then Kataron really doesn’t have a good reason to rebel. We also don’t know the details of the attacks, we have only heard a couple of people refer to them in passing. However how many people from Seel do you think joined the Federation the day MM was used for the first time(btw this makes no sense as MM should have had some firing test which would have been dead obvious to everyone with working eyes). As I have said and you have also said, we don’t know why Kataron is rebelling(and I doubt it is out of jealousy or just spite).

    No doubt both of them are rich, but to afford a global solar satellite is ridiculous. The overall costs of the ISS is in the range of 35 billion to 100 billion and that thing makes the ISS look like a toy(although space travel and development might have decreased prices, we are still looking easily at double digits in the billions). The mirrors alone would cost a fortune, not to mention the technology and computers inside. In regards to countries in the Federation, they have not mentioned how people within these individual countries were better off, other than a stable economy. Remember that we are merging essentially the world economy into one market. We have no clue how this affected local markets in Taribia, their market maybe more stable but they also might be poorer.

    Remember that Shirin is not really that high up and that she is only one person, we have no background on essentially anybody other than the new Lockon Sratos(and even that is not solid) in Kataron. Other people in Kataron might have more personal reasons than Shirin(who should have just shut her mouth and tried to fix her own country). As we have seen they have a space fleet so either they have access to the solar elevators (which is the main mode of transportation into space) through disgruntled people in the Federation or it’s a much larger movement. Some countries within the Federation could feel the power is imbalanced towards certain powers therefore could be funding the Federation. Once again as an organization we know next to nothing about how Kataron gets its’ funding, supplies, people, or even their leaders.

    As you mentioned there was a one year gap between the founding of Kataron and the Federation forming. We have no idea what happened within that one year and which political leaders “disappeared”.

    This is where I think CB and Kataron is going to clash in future episodes and it will be interesting to see what Lockon does. Anyway this is where past details would be necessary. I doubt the current Lockon would agree to be in an organization that uses roadside bombs or mall bombs due to his past history(even though he says he doesn’t care about the past, even though he has shown interest in Ali or beating his brother’s records). It is possible that Kataron blew up government buildings that unfortunately had civilians inside. This last point I would disagree with as those automaton robots and satellites along with the new Gundams probably took up alot of development time. The Innovators had been planning on using A-Laws for years now, as mention by Ribbons in his great scheme. It’s even possible that the Innovators had been causing crappy conditions in the Federation so something like Kataron could develop which would allow them to create an anti-terrorist unit such as A-Laws.

    What I don’t like is that Lindt didn’t care about dragging uninvolved citizens(that were neither Federation or Kataron members) into their “peace-keeping” actions. Lindt and crew have been using a WMD with absolute disregard to collateral damage. I mean Richieria had no clue that they were even at war with the Federation or that the Federation was planning on eliminating their military bases. Sometimes killing civilians is unavoidable but I have yet to see any military reasoning that would justify vaporizing a city or the civilians around the Richieria military base(which they could have just bombed in a conventional manner which would have been less likely to kill the refugees around it). Why side with either, as I have mentioned CB is much more the heroes in this season as they are specifically targeting the Innovators and the A-Laws. Their cooperation this season seems to border more along the lines of the enemy of my enemy is my friend rather than a true partnership(otherwise why would the current Lockon be hiding his membership in Kataron).

    You don’t even need to go that far back, just look at the 1940′s with Hitler and Stalin. They both had a cult of personality and people in both countries thought that their rulers had divine right. Heck there are people in the 1800s that would look at our culture and society with disgust in electing a black president, inter-racial marriage, or even women rights. Does that mean we should allow racism to prosper or allow men to beat their wives? We as a society try to adapt and learn from what we deem mistakes and move forward.

    Well I could argue that both countries would be broke. The US companies could not afford the large amount of union workers and the Mexican economy would have a large influx of unemployed. Before the economy collapsed, there were talks of a world wide union which cover essentially abused workers in Mexico. This would have been brought some jobs back to the US as there wouldn’t be that much of a benefit to export jobs overseas as well as protect workers in developing countries. It would have initially been rough of companies but they would have been able to adjust. However now that almost all the companies world wide are broke this is essentially a no go. The next 3 months will be a make or break time period if the new bailout doesn’t work as well as anything the new Congress and Senate does, then we’re all royally screwed.

    Reply
48. Crusader
    Posted December 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    @Jarmel
    I think Memento Mori is more along the lines of those old German Rail way guns only with a dash of Atomic Annie added in. It takes advantage of infrastructure already in place the orbital ring, and it’s rail systems the cost would not have been that prohibitive as you suggest as the Ion Cannon utilizes technology that was already in place. More over it cheapens the power solution as it is plugged into the Orbital Elevators themselves. It is still a beam weapon the technological challenge of which has mostly been solved, only now they upscaled it. I doubt it cost comparatively as much as the the US atomic bomb program which was purely theoretical when it was first envisioned. A public weapons test might have resulted in an embarrassing public failure, after all if Truman had made the Potsdam Declaration with an attached test, and the test failed the Allies would have looked like idiots and Truman might well have lost his job over it. Even 00bama has to be mindful of public snafus. As for an example of a common market, the EU is undergoing the same thing right now, so far more nations want in than want out. We shall see how it goes, but so far it demonstrates that it can be done without revolutionary pains. For now I think that the EU has improved the standard of living as opposed to those that struggle outside of the EU.

    While all of Kataron’s reasons for their actions have not been elaborated the reasons they have given are fairly weak to say the least, we are almost at the half way point here and so far they have no demonstrated that their struggle is all that sympathetic given the lack of evidence for Feddie brutality, again they are not targeting civilians directly while Kataron is. Either Sunrise gives us more evidence or your speculation is just speculation and not justification for Kataron’s use of terrorism. As for that one year, if such a short time passes (in terms of government speed) that Kataron uses terror tactics the reasons better be good otherwise they remain a minority trying to enforce their will on a majority. As CB doesn’t take issue with the Federation proper it doesn’t seem as if there was a Gestapo like crack down if most of the powers the A-Laws have were recently granted. They aren’t lining up Kataron Members across a ditch and mowing them down either. Even in the first episode their trap was only created after the capture of a Kataron Cruiser, given the haste it may have simply been a a hasty no mercy ambush, subsequently we see them housing Kataron members in expensive prisons that seem to lack water boarding facilities, thumbscrews, and electrodes given Princess Poverty’s rather polite interrogation. Again the A-Laws and Feddies seem less evil empire and more controversial governmental entity we are commonly familiar with.

    Kataron can hid in the depths of space not even the entire Feddie fleet could keep track of all that void given the number of ships they seem to have. If CB can use the orbital elevator with out much fuss it seems that at least the Feddies aren’t going through every package, not very totalitarian if you ask me. As to Lyle hiding, CB took in a known Kataron member, its essentially an alliance even if it is one of convenience. So as far as the Feddies are concerned given how everyone still remembers the brutality of the Thrones, I see little reason for the Feddies not to go all out against Kataron and any other group that might aid the wonderful people who gave tacit endorsement to Nena’s actions.

    Even with a conventional attack, high speed bombing runs are risky and not always accurate, pilots prefer to fly high for their own safety further reducing accuracy. More over the Richieria Base might have been out side of the operational range of Feddie Bombers and/or their fighter escorts, mobile suits too given how they need carriers. Given how orbital drop is still something shocking for Katie the Feddies don’t have drop troops at their disposal. If we knew the precise location it would have made sense to do a carpet bombing or crater the runways with a low level strike as such it was perhaps out of range for conventional methods, so we don’t know. Nevertheless even if Lindt did care, what right could he claim to countermand the orders of the elected President of the Federation? If his morality got in the way he would have been replaced by some one less high minded and the result would have been the same. This is still a total war Lindt did not ask those refugees to congregate there nor did he allow them to, if there is blame to go around for involving these people Richieria must certainly shoulder some of it. Again Lindt was not pointing his gun at the designated target of the bases’ control tower, it sucks that there were refugees in the way, but Lindt was not gunning for them. LeMay and Harris killed plenty of enemy civilians, it is no longer right nor fashionable these days to endorse their actions, but at the time they were necessary for an Allied Victory. Right or wrong Lindt was doing something militarily necessary (te destruction or neutralization of all enemy military power), he leveled a base, 1 million refugees that were in the vicinity with the tacit endorsement of his enemies died as a result of Richierian refugee policy and Lindt not caring. If Lindt was a caring person he would not be the asshole XO or hard hearted chief of staff for Katie. You will need hard hearted people if you want to win a war, you will have to kill the enemy or he will kill you. If the Allies were a bunch of nice folks who worried about enemy civilians the Second World War would have played out differently. War is still barbarity at best, is there a reason to play nice if your enemy isn’t? Is moral conscience worth they lives of your own people? You call CB heroes, I hesitate to call them that given how they simply fight for their own self satisfaction and to ease the memories of their failures, they are aiding the destruction of Federation without the vaguest idea of what will be in place when the dust settles. Aiding Nena at the hour of her what should have been her doom doesn’t help me think that these people are all good or heroic. They use force to intimidate the rest into following what they want, I fail to see how this is heroic, the Innovator issue got tabled without much discussion over their current activities, Jihad-kun thinks he is right and everyone else is wrong and will kill them until his right is the only opinion left. I don’t think there are any heroes here only soldiers and terrorists.

    We do allow racism and wife beating, in other societies, what I am trying to say is that in ours we have come to a consensus on what is right and what is wrong, neither were ever set in stone. The world however has not come to a general consensus on those issues.

    Reply
49. Jarmel
    Posted December 28, 2008 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    I would say MM is closer to a concentrated DEW than a railgun as MM is pure energy. If it operated using energy from OEs then I expect to see mass global electrical shortages not to mention the fact that they could not rapid shoot it. It would seem that they have an independent energy source other than the OE which most likely would be mirrors or some other fuel source. There are also the computers and programs that run this thing. So the technology, materials, energy source, as well as the designers and human labor, would have made this an extremely expensive project. Well it wouldn’t have been more embarrassing then if it failed to destroy Seel. Test fires are a necessary component for any weapon to make sure that they work and that you know how destructive it is. For all the Federation knew, MM could have blown a hole straight through the Earth.

    I agree that the burden of proof is more on Kataron than the Federation. Sunrise has not explained anything regarding Kataron(this might happen through later episodes because of the current Lockon Stratos). However just because we don’t know their motives doesn’t mean we should write them off as a bunch of bloody-thirsty terrorists.

    Well the difference between CB and Kataron is that CB had most of their stuff in space and already built as well as nobody knew what the people in CB looked like. Kataron had to essentially transport a whole fleet worth of supplies, food, and equipment into space. Transporting such a huge amount of material would be dead obvious to anyone even bothering to look. They definitely don’t know that he is supplying Kataron with information regarding plans such as the jail break. It seems that they took him in, mostly for emotional reasons rather than military(not to mention financially for Sunrise), and thought that he cut off ties with Kataron.

    I agree that a high speed bombing would be risky and that it would not be perfectly accurate however it’s atleast an attempt at preserving human life and show that the Federation does care about civilian life. In regards to the operational limits, I doubt this as we had regular troops on the border of Seel and unless Seel or Richieria is on the outskirts of the ME, it would have been feasible. They could have also easily used those automatons or a Gundam(that are still in the ME due to their previous encounter with CB) and wiped the base clean. I would have alot more respect for the Federation if they attempted to localize the damage In Richieria’s case, the burden of proof would lie on the Federation. I’m not blaming just Lindt but also leaders of the Federation such as the President(who is mostly a tool for the Innovators). If he did care then he should have stopped it. As we have seen through the Nuremberg trials, just following orders is part of the reason for the Holocaust and not a viable defense for a soldier. As I mentioned earlier this was essentially unnecessary and overkill. Unnecessary because Richieria posed no direct or indirect threat to the Federation, rather it was the possibility that got them killed. It was overkill because there were less destructive means available to the Federation but they still chose the weapon that had the largest explosive radius. Really only Sumeragi, Ian, and Saji are doing this out of easing their past screw ups. The meisters are trying to prevent future war and death in the long run, Setsuna’s past acts more as motivation for him though,(even if they have to cause it) besides it’s better than Seed or Destiny when Kira and Athrun wouldn’t kill anyone. Well in A-Laws case, they are trying to correct a problem they feel that they started when they helped(indirectly I guess) form the Federation. Does it really matter why they kill the Innovators, isn’t it just enough that they kill the jerks? Many things in history that people deem heroic are done of out of self-interest. It’s not as if Setsuna has taken any interest in Nena, rather quite the opposite. I doubt that Setsuna would have even interfered or cared that much if it had been anybody other than Ali. Well initially they used the idea of force and this season are pretty much on the run. The thing with the Innovators is that they have no clue where the Innovators are housed and just trying to deal with the ones already up in space. They are probably going to get pwned next episode when more Innovators come up so the current strategy of a few at a time is probably the best idea. Well for Setsuna, I think he knows he is in the wrong (as seen by his regret for his past actions when he was a kid by allowing the past Lockon to shoot him)as well as everyone in CB but they are doing their best to try and make a peaceful world and they feel that the major obstacle is the Innovators, they initially thought it was A-Laws but as they have seen A-Laws is an expansion from the original problem. I would say that CB is closer to Lelouch in that they both know that they are going to hell when this is all said and done.

    There are still universal no-nos such as murder, rape(especially in children cases), and slavery(kinda). A good indicator of when people are going to reach a consensus on something regarding morality is when you stop treating the other party as a human being.

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50. Crusader
    Posted December 28, 2008 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    @Jarmel
    When I said railgun I meant railway guns along the lines of Dora and Gustav from the Second World War. It was heavily implied that Seel was the leader of a military and political bloc in the Middle east similar to NATO and the Warsaw Pact, again Sergei and his Regular Army Brass believed the whole region would go to war with Seel at the head. Given that even Mr. Wild “Clean War” Bear believed this to be the case he probably wasn’t lying. Assuming Sergei isn’t a liar the why does Richieria get a pass for keeping those refugees there? I think Richieria deserves some of the blame for endangering them with their refugee meat shield strategy. They did not have to have it there of all places. In war the idea is to bring overwhelming force at a single point to overwhelm the enemy, no commander worth his salt would attack without asking for a 3:1 advantage in numbers or overwhelming air and artillery support if given the choice. Kataron had three years to amass that fleet it was possible given the time frame considering barring the Virginia Class the old HRL carriers were essential glorified cargo ships.

    What happened at the Nuremberg Trials might have been a form of victor’s justice. You have to remember at the time antisemitism was not out of style, even Patton was guilty of it. Fact remains we tried them rightly or wrongly after it was considered a crime, prior to the Jews were considered sub-human.

    As for universal no-nos, there are plenty of instances where murder is permissible (Hamas kills plenty of Israelis, but the people of Palestine don’t seem to mind enough to get them to stop), same goes for rape (again Japanese soldiers raped plenty of women, and Japanese women nary put in a word of protest), as for slavery it still exists in the more lawless parts of the world and takes on new guises in certain places. It’s when you have the concept of the “other” things stop applying. I don’t think it can be said we all treat everyone else as human beings, it would be nice if we were all color blind, but if you were mugged would honestly not mention the color of the one who mugged you? I confess my magnanimity does not extend that far nor am I colorblind.

    Jihad-kun would have saved the Trinities regardless if it were Ali or not, he was not going to arrest them, he went out to save their butts from Wild Bear and Soma and quite forgot about the bad things they were doing. Only after it was confirmed to be Ali did his screws get real loose.

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