If only this warhorse had only to fight anything but Zakus…
Well after IKnight posted about MS IGLOO 2 I figured I might as well, for those who don’t know each ep is a 30 min love song to a weapon that took part in the One Year War. As a rule there isn’t much of a plot to speak of and truth is they aren’t going to win any awards for great characterization given the daunting task of introducing some poor guy only kill him off at the end. Still it is gritty even if it is 5,000 leagues away from realism with the shinagami chick. Unlike ghostlightning and IKnight I don’t really care about the shinagami because her name isn’t Sanders and she doesn’t pilot a mobile suit in the 8th MS Team she’s death and that is all there is to it all I care about is that the Type 61 is fight and boy is it FIGHT. I would have posted this earlier but my attempts to watch it in glorious 1080p were all for naught and I just called it quits and got the 720p instead, thanks to the boys and girls at gg for subbing this in HD.
As you can see here this lazy Zeke A Gunner is DOING IT WRONG, hell I operate a M240 and I think little of that drum mag too.
That must have been a bitch to dig.
Unlike the IRL Big Red 1 these guys weren’t nearly as great.
Yandell is very much in the mold of Captain Ahab and the minute you see him with his peg leg and wish to fight the White Ogre, you know he’s not long for the world, even more so when the poor schmuck who gets to be his driver may as well be Ishmael. Still it was a worthy effort to try and give Yandell some personality, it’s rather hard though since it is CG and the predominant face for just about every one but Yandell and the major is abject terror. As I said before it is gritty, but not real the overwhelming Feddie Air Force is no where to be seen, in fact for the most part there are no fighters or aircraft at all. It’s really a wonder that what use to be boscage country turned into a desert with no trees. Had it been like Normandy in 1944 it would have made for an interesting fight, and certainly the Zakus would not have dominated the way they did. Ah well North Africa was the place where there were a good number of tank battles any way though if the wanted a good place to flee to the sea Dunkirk was a few good miles up the coast.
While the turret is placed more towards the back, unlike the Merkava crew survivability was dismally low.
Uh Dunkirk was a bit up North…
The Type 61 frowns upon your shenanigans.
Still that Type 61 was fucking lovely, the twin cannons are excessive and would be a bitch to implement properly. Still they did try to make the Type 61 plausible with the auto loader and having only a crew of two since the Type 61 also had to carry 155mm discarding sabot rounds which aren’t small. Still as a treadhead it was disappointing to see that it was only a crew of two since the inclusion of a gunner would have let Yandell do nothing but command, but to be fair I don’t think Sunrise counts that many treadheads among them. Then again even the Zeke MG A gunner was DOING IT WRONG, so it’s not that big of a deal. It’s rather funny how the Germans were the ones who tried to build the Ratte and yet they share more in common with the Zekes. I like how they tried to explain more about the Type 61 than they did the characters, and in many ways the Type 61 is the real star of the episode, though because realism got kicked in the crotch when Zakus started dodging tank rounds the Type 61’s heyday had already passed. Still it had some fight left in it as Yandell tried to fight it the smart way with numbers and ambushes. Still the Type 61 vs Magella Attack Tanks was welcome if all too brief, I probably would have enjoyed that a more than the training fight they had, but overall the action was great, just not orgasmic to the point where the average mecha fan would be left twitching in his seat. In all the Type 61 is Fight and is worth checking out for treadheads, and those who want half an hour’s worth of mecha action. However if you want a plot and a storyline you better look elsewhere this is a short affair and the story is just something to justify the Type 61 blowing up Zekes.
The Magella Tank is no maatch for the might of the Type 61.
For Fuck’s sake you’re amatuer…
Where’s the air support?
I dub thee Major Giggles.
I continue to FIGHT!
Goodnight.
Avast there be the White Zaku, MAN THE HARPOONS!
My balls are on FIRE!
Looks like you got some explosive diarrhea there, I here they call it the Zaku shits, remeber to use your iodine tablets next time…
I am game for his crooked jaw, and for the jaws of Death too, Lt. Yandell, if it fairly comes in the way of the business we follow; but I came here to hunt Zakus, not my commander’s vengeance. How many barrels will thy vengeance yield thee even if thou gettest it, Lt. Yandell? it will not fetch thee much in our Luna market.
I prefer the Type 61 myself.
30 Comments
LOL re “I am the victor” I was in the middle of my Stardust Memory re-watch when I found this post. I feel like a dunce and a half for missing the Moby Dick allusion. I’m getting soft in my old age. That’s why Ahab is The Winner.
Given the constraints of such a short format, using the allusion immediately layered my experience of the character. I had put Yandell way behind Barberry as a character, being an Ahab character narrows the divide for me. Very cool.
That’s one sweet cap of the white Zaku above the smoke canopy.
THIS IS WHY UC ROCKS…
The Type-61 is like the ground equivalent of the RB-79 Ball, hopelessly outclassed in a 1v1, but nasty in numbers and ambushes…
btw, belted MG ammo >>> drums. Reloading Ultimax drums are a real pain…
I really should get to watch IGLOO 2.
Anyways was the pilot of the white Zaku ever mentioned? I’m thinking of Shin Matsunaga, though he can’t be at Earth.
Interesting to hear some words on this from someone who Knows, as they say. Is the problem with having two main guns rather than one a matter of getting them to aim in the right place, or a problem with the internal configuration of the turret, loading mechanism &c?
I’m sure you’re right that the 61 is the star of the story, not the humans. From the preview it looked like the next machine will be a Guntank variant, which I suppose is about as close to a tank as you can get while still being a Mobile Suit . . .
Regarding two main guns on a tank. The way I understand it, tanks are VERY weight sensitive, the more weight you add on, the bigger the engine, fuel tanks, suspension, and transmission, which in turn increases weight even more, leading to poor fuel economy, increased maintenance, and so on.
Then there is mobility:
First – Bridges. Most of the worlds bridges can barely handle a 40 ton vehicle, the only bridges that can handle a 70 ton monstrosity which is the modern tank exist only in the developed world – and even then, care must be taken!
Second – Traficability. The composition of the ground and the weight of the vehicle limits where a tank can operate. If the tank is too heavy for the local conditions it will bog down. The German WW2 Maus Super Heavy Tank is said to have been so heavy, that when it drives down a street the weight of it pushes down on the road, displacing earth and collapsing the nearby buildings!
The Hull of a modern tank (Abrams/Leo 2) weighs roughly 40 tons and the turret 15-20. The gun itself
(Rheinmetall 120mm) weighs 3317kg with mount. The Abrams carries 42 rounds for the main gun.
The Type 61.
The dual guns are a big problem, they don’t really add anything except a second round (tactically useless) while increasing weight dramatically and reducing armor protection. Compared to the previously mentioned modern tank, a drastic increase in the turret ring diameter is required, leading to a increased hull size, leading to a massive overall weight increase. This effectivly increases tank weight to over 100 tons.
Further, the size of the 155mm rounds limits the amount of ammunition that can be carried. A vehicle of this type would only be able to carry some 20 rounds.
A 100+ ton vehicle is unworkable. It would consume too much logistics, while only being able to move on a small portion of the world where it has favorable conditions.
To summarize; traficability limits tank weight. Some consider the current 60-70 ton tanks to be too heavy already. The only way to pay for the weight cost of the extra gun is to reduce armor. This gives you a dual gun, overweight PzH 2000 with paper thin armor.
This is the reason why post WW1 tanks follow the one turret/one gun pattern. For a given weight, it is the most effective solution, maximizing firepower and armor, while also simplifying fire control and reducing the Tank Commanders workload.
That being said, a 155mm main gun is a intresting thought – even with a ordinary High Explosive shell it would do serious damage to any opponent; potentionally flipping over lighter tanks!
Having thought about it; I would have to say that the biggest drawback of the Type 61 is the Tank Commanders workload. A normal tank has a crew of four: Driver, Gunner, Loader, and Tank Commander.
Seemingly, the only person without a ‘real’ job todo is the TC. Considering that every additional crewmember costs a tank roughly 8 tons in the armor required to protect him, it makes sense to eliminate the loader and combine the Gunner and TC roles.
This is a mistake. First, Tanks are maintenance intensive and additional hands are always welcome. Second, although a Tank may look big and dangerous from the outside, from the inside, the crew has these tiny vision slits, and they don’t really see much – especially cross country at speed!
The driver can only see straight forward, the gunner, only where the turret is pointing. The TC is the only crewmember who has a 360 degree view. It is his job to spot for enemy armor, helicopters and infantry, designate and prioritize targets.
Unsupported Tanks are sitting ducks for a well coordinated infantry assault. Without the situational awareness the TC provides, they aren’t even that! If you read about the ‘Battle of Vukovar’ or the various russian adventures, you will find that improper and unsupported use of armor against competent opposition inevitably and predictably leads to disaster.
Tanks can’t depress or elevate their guns enough to engage people in cellars or above the fourth floor making it possible for Infantry with RPGs in the urban environment to engage tanks with impunity.
Tanks are vulnerably enough – The last thing you need it to cripple the TC as well! This is also why people stress combined arms so much, and why Tanks should be accompanied by infantry – prefferably mechanized – whenever possible.
The job of the accompanying infantry is very important; they spot for targets, supress enemy RPG and ATGM teams, and prevent the enemy from simply walking up to the tank and throwing a backpack full of explosives on the engine deck. While the front armor of a tank is plenty thick, the top probably wouldn’t stop a .50 BMG AP.
To summarize; the Type 61 is flawed. A one turret/one gun solution, with three crewmembers would have been much better.
And for gods sake! Please, PLEASE! Show some combined arms! The 08th MS Team is considered to be one of the better series for a reason!
The Type 61 is impractical with current technology and current developments in armor, but still while the tactical feasibility is suspect this is a mecha show with big tall humaniod robots which are more impractical. I think more crew is a double edged sword since it means you field less and mechanization of duties isn’t always a bad thing since an auto-loader means less men lost should a tank get hit, it also could mean a lower profile since might not be so cramped in the turret.
On another note Igloo 2 -3 the last OVA in the series has more of the combined arms you are looking for, not much infantry but loads of GM goodness. Also there is an abundance of heavy ordinance, and artillery does fill the gap to kill anti-tank infantry and it does knock down 4th floors…
I agree, and if possible I would also prefer to reduce crew, down to a single person or even unmanned. Unfortunantly, even with a autoloader, with current technology a effective fighting vehicle can’t do without a dedicated Driver, Gunner and TC.
Remove any one of them and you compromise the vehicles fighting potential. Perhaps in the future some sort of expert system can compensate, but currently humans are the limiting factor.
One thing which is perhaps worth to consider is that not all autoloders are made equal. The Leclerc/Type 90 are pretty good, while the T-72 system, while relatively reliable are said to have this odd tendency of stuffing parts of the crew into the breech! Though this may be simple hearsay.
Nontheless, looking at video recordings of the action, the Leclerc autoloader seems noticably smoother and less complicated – which should imply greater reliability.
That being said, you are right in your assumption that a autoloader can be used to make the vehicle lighter. Late 1980’s Soviet armor such as the T-80 was 20 tons lighter than the comparable Abrams while offering identical performance with regards to armor and firepower. Upgrades to the Abrams during the 1990s, primarily in optics and fire control, but also armor and ammunition design, means that the Abrams is currently superior.
Regarding Igloo 2 -3; I had no intention of seeing any more episodes, the Type 61 was what interested me. However, due to your recomendation, I will. Thank you for your comment.
No. That’s a soviet Apocalypse tank.
Dang, will anyone ever sub this normally ? Those fuckers at gg only do ridiculous HD…shitheads.
At least it wasn’t about some boring, antiquated piece of artillery. That would have been unfortunate.
@Kherubim
Indeed back in the UC days not every one and their mum had a Gundam and having a Gundam really meant something. I prefer belts because you can take advantage of that high rate of fire for much longer periods of time, it also makes the A Gunner useful.
@Thingle
No its a GDI Mammoth Tank.
@Karry
I am sure some group will put it out in avi soon or later, though depending on where you look you can build a new rig for cheap. Avi is starting to fall to the way side at any rate.
@Eirias
I think the GM Cannon and Guntank are useful…
Wow, those do look like GDI/Soviet Mammoth Tanks (w/o the anti-air/anti-personnel missiles) from the older C&C games.
Kherubim: Ultimax drums? who uses those!? modded M16 mags with the 2 holes for the Ultimax locking lugs were the best bloody invention ever! magazines fully compatible within a section, no bloody belt of ammo to snag on vines and branches… its just a pity that the advent of the SAR21 has put a crimp in the fun, at least until they make SAWs that can take SAR mags…
Ugh. My comment was moderated. WRYYYY? I was first too!
I like the subtle transition from an seemingly hopeless situation to hope. We see fed troops running from the zeon invasion with seemingly powers over 9000 in ep. 1, and now in the second episode we see a counterattack from the feds with zeon retreating (though it did not end too well). Still, you cannot help but cheer on the 61s fighting back.
Crusader, why aren’t there more PhD or MD anime bloggers? I can argue the particularities of molecular biology or Cartesian ethics to the death, but the most I can directly reference military procedures are disparaging comments regarding artillery (to specifically annoy you) and comments on jus ad bellum. While I may supremely subscribe to Kaplan’s theories regarding a “pagan” approach to war, even I have difficulty debating the exact usage of force, such as Kherubim or Lurkerjay espouse. Any bloglinks?
Jus ad bellum is easy to understand, and, as such, easy to debate. Jus in bello is not quite so simple. While I, as an absolute bystander, see Robert Kaplan’s “Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos” (which, to be honest, is my second favorite book on war after Sun Tsu) as a fairly definitive guide to war for the common-person, what would you (the collective blogosphere) recommend? I would consider myself vaguely sound on my tactics, though pretty weak on my strategy. I sm good at Go, but weak at chess,
Your move, as it were.
And, Crusader, as a fourth consecutive post… Robert Kaplan is far more than a simple reporter. Name three other modern writers who have written more pertinent, (and intelligent) treatise on the state of war.
@LurkerJay: Thanks, I’m feeling old now…
I haven’t watched this ep, but was the pilot of the white Zaku ever mentioned? It just reminds me of Shin Matsunaga.
I could swear I commented on this, but maybe it hit the spam filter, or something. But anyway, nice post. Aesthetically speaking, I think I prefer drums to belts, though I’m guessing that aesthetic concerns don’t sit top of real-life weapons designers’ lists of priorities.
Eirias: exact usage of force? ehhh… me and Kherubim were geeking out on a light machine gun. not like we were talking von Clausewitz
although funny enough i was taught the Principles of War in spec school… as a water parade cheer!
@TJ
Well these are 3 times faster without the red paint!
@LurkerJay
You and your SAWs all I get to use is the M240 and the M2, both of which are BELT FED for GREAT JUSTICE.
@Dome
Yeah you know they are doomed but you still can but help cheer for the Feddies.
@Eirias
PhDs and MDs have to do research only under grads and a few BS or BAs have time to goof of with animu and mango. I haven’t read much of Kaplan, but from what I have heard he’s a slightly saner Ralph Peters, both only seem to see the world as it is, not how it should be. Even then they are a bit beyond the pale when they both call everything. Neither however seems to appreciate how finite American Military power is.
The way I see it conventional war will never go away simply because not every one has nukes, artillery is still the King of Battle because the USAF ain’t that Godly no air force can hit everything accurately in foul weather or when they face a SAM umbrella, so there will always be a place for artillery which hits like a ton of bricks no matter the conditions. There isn’t much that can withstand a 155mm Howitzer shell and even as far back as WWII you had very accurate artillery. The US in particular was loathed by the Germans who felt that within 5 minutes of every attack that every gun on the Western front was pointed at him, and the Japanese decried the US for hiding behind it’s deadly artillery barrages and superior fire power. Suffice to say the Allies and the US in particular were one of the few nations that had the money to fire for effect…
@ghostlightning, schneider, and IKnight
Sorry about eh spam karma issues I hope this won’t happen again.
@ghostlightning
Yandell is a winner, though here he is THE Winner since he took down 7 Zakus with a lowly Type 61. Moby Dick was one of the first novels I remember reading, the peg leg and the White Ogre just kind of stood out immediately with the quest for revenge completing the triangle.
I prefer the balls on fire mone myself.
@schneider
I think his name was Snell or somesuch, I don’t really care for Zekes.
@IKnight
The problem is getting them to hit accurately because tanks are often too small to have the kind of turret you see on Battleships. If you ever get to shoot a gun you’ll find at greater distances it’s hard to hit a target unless your position is stable and your breathing perfect (i.e. standing vs. prone). One of the reasons why the Germans bothered with such complex suspensions for the Panther and the Tiger was because they made for stable gun platforms so you could take advantage of that 75 and 88 long. Unless the firing is synced perfectly the recoil from the one that fires first will throw off the aim of the second barring some technical solution that we in the 21st Century haven’t bothered with, also since the one shot from most modern MBTs have a decent penetration adding a second gun is not that much of a benefit since you also burn up ammo faster, which again take up a lot of room. I know in the case of the M1A2 getting it to hit while on the move was hard enough to get right, though even in instances of blue on blue with the Abrams the tank itself was usually salvageable after a direct hit.
Aesthetics are usually towards the bottom since feeding, recoil, and accuracy are the more important things. Realistically that barrel for that Zeke MG was pretty big and you probably would have fit only 10-20 rounds in that mag, which sort of negates the point of an MG if you have to switch out for every burst and re aim… Sunrise gets the mobile suits right for the most part, small arms though on the other hand aren’t anywhere near Golgo 13 or Black Lagoon.
Crusader: if you have to spray the whole box, you’re in trouble anyway
sustained fire also means more wear on the barrel, more maintenance, the need for spare barrels to allow cooling, more admin for the armskote guy… as a section weapon, i dont think you should be putting out terribly long bursts onn an Ultimax SAW anyhow. thats what the L7 GPMGs are for. and as an armoured infantry section commander, i usually have one at my disposal…
@LurkerJay
I don’t use SAWs my weapon is usually of the NATO 7.62 type, I use what you call the L7A2 FN MAG I just call it the M240 and those don’t have drum mags that are practical. To be sure there are benefits for drum mags for NATO 5.56. Maybe in your unit the only a few have to clean weapons, in my unit every one cleans their own weapon… Besides we Americans seems to actively look for trouble so if there will be trouble then rather let A gunner monitor the length of the belt because I can’t count that fast.
Besides we both know officers rarely if ever clean their own weapons…
Crusader: yeah. only the tank PCs seem to take an active interest in their vehicles… where i come from the only people who are issued arms and dont actually have to clean them are policemen. it always fascinated me how the poor police armourers have to maintain the revolvers for them
This episode made me fucking spooge cum 30mm shots like that of an GAU-8 Avenger.
Seriously, I freaked out. GREAT EPISODE!