Since it seems that IKnight’s post seems to have sparked a spate of discussion on Gundam 00 I might as well add more fuel to it. Omo wrote a post about how Gundam 00’s world is similar to our own world, in a sense he is somewhat right and some what off. Omo’s theory that it is a sort of Japanese view on the post 9/11 world it inevitably means that it offers a critique of American foreign policy and how the dynamics of politics have shifted. To be sure much of it might seem new, but Al Qaida did not show up over night and preemptive strike has been used before. Omo suggests that the War on Terror and the War against Communism are two very different things, but I don’t entirely agree with that for a number of reasons. Moreover I find omo’s idea that we are crediting an invisible enemy that is neither here nor there, something that can’t be grappled and zapped to be misleading and to be frank false. To be fair omo and I probably sit on opposite sides of the fence on the issue. I stand to lose far more than omo does and that alone will certainly color my perception of reality as it will inevitably be through a lens of conflict. I disagree with the idea that you need to be an “innocent” civilian to understand peace, I may know more about killing than I do about living vis a vis civilians like omo, but that doesn’t mean that one can’t fully appreciate the concept of peace.
Just because Jihad-kun can wear a disguise, doesn’t mean he can use moon prism power.
I think that the current enemy is very human and is limited to what humans can actually do, what omo suggests, though unintentionally, amounts to the Grand Jihad-kun of al Qaida and his peon Jihad-kuns having supernatural powers that they are invisible and can strike at will. I am sure that the enemy would like to be able to masquerade as anyone, but they are no Stasi nor are they Cylons they’re not there yet the fact that they have had a couple anniversaries to snag a second victory and yet nothing has occurred in that time might well mean that they are not everywhere. They are human they can be hunted down run down and zapped for good measure, there is nothing superhuman about them. The Jihad-kuns we face have a physical vessel only that in the rugged terrain of Afghanistan and the issue of Pakistani sovereignty makes the task more difficult coupled with the challenges of having finite man power, finite money, and fickle public will. Like the War against Communism this conflict is seemingly one of ideology only that this isn’t a war between nation states per-se but is one of national/cultural wills. The enemy is human he can be killed, and unlike in Gundam 00 where the terrorists are mostly human, but can’t be killed that only holds true if reality were dictated by Sunrise. My enemy was not born to kill, the Grand Jihad-kun himself was born wealthy and peaceable, and he also had youthful transgressions of his own, but essentially in more ways than one believe it or not Grand Jihad-kun was once average. Like Setsuna he made a conscious decision to kill, neither came out of the womb blasting everything in sight shouting Gundam or something similar What drove him to do what he did I don’t understand nor do most within the US military really want to understand much about the Grand Jihad-kun other than how much lead it will take to kill him before old age does. The face of violence is and has always been human, 9/11 did not change that it simply made the public aware of another kind of enemy; one that had largely been ignored, but had been in existence for some time. Lastly the Jihad-kuns of the world aren’t the only face of violence in this century, as there are other ongoing conflicts across the globe.
There is a place for violence certainly it would fit the situation above.
While the term neo-conservatism is one that makes omo uncomfortable and suspicious of my sanity, if we are to discuss Gundam 00 as a view of the post 9/11 world then it is impossible to avoid the issue given how it had shaped American foreign policy. I can understand how omo would prefer to avoid the term given the acrimony and the viciousness that flew around the interwebs during the last administration, but to that I think we need to face what it is without flinching or shrinking from the subject. As Gundam 00 and Gundam SEED were post 9/11 Gundams certainly they felt the need to deal with it too as both were on some level a critique of American Foreign Policy as they saw it. What it was the is idea that American military power had to be selectively maintained through their weapons procurement program, in order to create a peaceful world abroad and to fight extremism through the planting of democracy (along with capitalism) and the confrontation of enemies abroad. If we boil it down that is precisely what CB was trying to achieve along with Kataron the use of force to build a better world by using military intervention and violent methods to confront enemies like Ribbons, and plant their version of responsible government (or regime change) to ensure a more peaceful world. The goals might be different, but the methods and the justification of violence is similar, the only difference being perhaps the question of when to use violence, for CB and Kataron it was pretty much all the time. For Kataron because they had nothing for free they fought and killed for what they through was the solar energy that they were entitled to, it wasn’t about bargaining to get a fair price and that certainly carries some socialist overtones (which is more or less in line because the movement did start out as a defection of New Dealers so the story goes).
Certainly I think having a more benign ambition made Patrick the only real hero in Gundam 00 pilot pool.
I think that omo falls into the trap that many people who hope for peace when he ascribes GAR and cool to what CB was fighting for, in short he romanticized their violence. If Setsuna wanted a world where people like him would no longer be victimized he’d be better off slaughtering the entire human race, as free will essentially means that the average person has the capacity to screw over his fellow man. Tieria fighting for a future is pointless as humanity will always have a future one way or another so long as there are people, and given the current problems of our world I have doubts that war is the gravest threat facing humanity. Sumeragi doing it for herself and her ideals is what every revolutionary does the thing we often forget when thinking about revolution though are the ones that ended badly. I think Gundam 00 does romanticize the notion of a just terrorist, which undermines any message of peace just as much as it undermines any anti-war message. While Kataron did target civilians that was glossed over for a good vs. evil dynamic, which is sort of how the far right and to an extent the far left sees things anyways. On the face of it Jihad-kun and his friends did not reject the principles of that brand of foreign policy, and if omo’s assertion that the “terrorist were right” holds then that right is much more monstrous than I think most people would recognize. The CB path for peace certainly isn’t one I think of as practical, certainly wishful, but definitely idiotic in regards to finite strategic assets, though with GN Pixie Dust I guess it’s admissible.
War takes you to strange places, I doubt Katie or Patrick could have imagined that this was fated.
I think that it is a matter of interpretation whether or not war is an extension of peace or peace is the temporary absence of war. Certainly the more notable parts of human history are punctuated by war, as there was a Hundred Years War, but not a true Hundred Years Peace. Not Pax Romana, Pax Mongolica, Pax Britannica, or any of the other Paxes were without conflict. I think if Gundam 00 were truly about peace it would deal with the problems of reconciliation, reconstruction, over coming cultural differences, building consensus among a large and diverse group, and the pains of societal change; I don’t think there is much of that in Gundam 00. While there was talk of change there wasn’t that much of a fundamental change within the characters in terms of goals. Everyone wants peace, but the general quibble is on whose terms it will be. Certainly the Grand Jihad-kun of our world wants peace, but his peace probably involves a lot of dead Jews, Christians, atheists, Sunnis, and Shia, no Israel, and one Caliphate that rules over a world population consisting of Sunnis, but not any kind of Sunni his kind of Sunni. Then there are those who disagree with that kind of peace, hence there will be war. If there is a message of peace in Gundam 00 I think that it is fairly weak and on a shaky foundation when it is surrounded by all that sexy violence. Marina did not bring peace to Azadistan, she just showed up in the end to give a speech while the violence magically disappeared through GN Pixie dust. Certainly if peace attained through the CB way were possible we’d already have achieved it long ago. That’s where I think that most allegedly anti-war and pro-peace fictional works fail, the act of war itself is easier than peace. That winning a war is easier than maintaining a peace, and try as one might the seductiveness of violence as a means doesn’t lose its luster. Touting peace is good is easy and pretty much a given no matter who you ask, but again if peace were a theme I’d certainly expect a bit more on the problems of building it and maintaining it, rather than it be the end result of killing the big bad.
There are some leaders who won’t even let their starving impoverished populace eat cake…democracy fail.
Mass communication will not bring peace since even while the peon Jihad-kuns of our world use the same internet we are still embroiled in violent disagreement. Democracy might be a means to peace but if you really think about it democracy doesn’t always work, it has failed before and there will be failures of democracy in the future no matter what. Electing Hilrod 00 and casting aside 00bama will not really change all that much in the grand scheme of things. Nevertheless democracy is touted as a the thing that will bring peace, not only because of the grand assumption that we can all peaceably come to a compromise all the time, but also because authoritarianism simply cannot last and is very bad. Fact is Stalin was never deposed, Mao was never deposed, and Mugabe has yet to be and may never be deposed, so if certain requirements are met an autocrat can stay in power for a very long time. Certainly Napoleon, Louis XIII of France, Charles XII of Sweden, and Peter the Great of Russia were not very democratic but they did lead their nations to a pinnacle of power, which was largely supported. Greater awareness on the part of Saji and Air Head Louise will not bring peace because while there is much talk of Darfur there is no action on Darfur. Having an all powerful group of people threatening every one with destruction will not bring peace as even with enough American and Russian nuclear warheads to blow us all to hell twice or thrice over, there is no general desire to behave. Even in his post omo doesn’t talk much of peace but he certainly talks much of war and conflict. Nevertheless GN Pixie dust mediated communication as the vehicle of peace theme essentially means magic will bring us peace, and if that is the case then the peace theme of Gundam 00 is rather lacking. Even with the aliens thing, if there is intelligent life out there I bet they are smart enough to never make contact with a species such as ours, unless they are the Combine.
Unless you pilot a Megadeus, YE GUILTY.
Omo is right about one thing though, the rejection of service to a nation state in favor of oneself, Jihad-kun, Lyle, Sumeragi, and the gang are waging war for their own satisfaction. In a sense it might be modern to reject one’s society in favor of one’s own desires and wishes. In a fictitious world where there is GN Magic that might be okay, but fundamentally I think that sort of mentality is no less dangerous than any other mentality used to wage war, because in the end you are still killing people only with the CB mentality it is for your own satisfaction and the only accountability is to yourself. That may sound good, but then you have to realize that not all people are responsible. I don’t think the problem is government, but rather people.
Tl;dr Omo you’re not an innocent civilian because those taxes you should have paid also go to DoD. Even if you didn’t pay your taxes you certainly are guilty of tax evasion. 
PS Sorry excuse to post Katie and Patrick Wedding Fan art and Mugabe with cake.
17 Comments
Good reply, so some comments.
1. You are too tied up between your opinion on Gundam 00 and your own political opinions that it would be hard for me to discuss one without pressing your button on the other. So sadly this is the end of the line. For example, you used the term “neo-conservative” which, for what it is worth, is a meaningless term because it is a term that means less than it implicates. You might as well call it “fucking bad political ideologies.” It’s difficult to rationally discuss this if you’re just pumped full of rhetoric.
2. I actually agree with you more than you think even in my last G00 post alone. A lot of the points you pointed out I pointed out too (pretty much everything you said about terrorism), just in a tongue-in-cheek way. (You also misread the bit about where terrorists are coming from–I don’t really care about where Jihad-kun lives. I was talking about the fear that terrorists can live anywhere, strike anywhere, etc. Unreasonable and irrational? Absolutely; it’s suppose to be.) I think that’s unavoidable though because you’re taking it way too seriously to see them. You are also stuck with one POV.
3. I’m here to talk about Gundam and anime and not so much about politics. How you interpret the events in G00 is up to you and naturally that’s colored by your perception of the world, and we will have to touch on that. But if you claim to your own version and vision of the post 9-11 world as the absolute truth of what is happening and what has happened, we will not get anywhere.
i know both you guys make good points all around, and i really like how omo referenced that Xam’d speech, since i think it makes sense in some ways. sure, the little Jihad-kuns are tangible, we can find them, hunt them, kill them, but they are not the enemy, they are the tools of the enemy. the definition of any enemy has to change based on the circumstances, like you can say bin Laden is the enemy or is he just using the circumstances for his own advantage for selfish means other than his ‘peace’, can the enemy be the ideologies that made it possible in the first place for people like him to control little Jihad-kuns. the ‘enemy’ can be described as a whole host of things but the portrayal of the jihad-kins as the only enemy is what ’stirs the heart’. but also, Crusader, i think you thought too simply about the whole thing with anti-war pro-peace works. you are right in that the act of war is easier than peace, but isnt that evident even in shows like 00. i mean, all you see people complaining about is that the show made the suits too powered up, the enemy took the secret weapons too quickly, ….. basically fighting was made too easy. the protagonists talked about peace, their own peace, a lot towards the end of the series and not only were they all different, most of them were plainly impossible to create without the GN Pixie dust. they were impossible dreams that any rational person would think could be attained, hence the countries of the world at first blatantly saying such a thing was impossible, labeling CB as terrorists, and choosing to fight back. i mean, the whole Aeolia plan was almost getting to a point, and with a movie may still get there, that the only way for there to be ‘peace’ for humanity is to be unified in fighting somebody else. i know i am given the writers of such shows too much credit, but in effect, they do show us that the act of fighting, in the general sense, is easy and that the act of peace, even in the event of the fighting having stopped, is more than likely to hard to hold onto. As for the GN particles idea in the first place, i know they talk about understanding and what not, but that doesnt really work, because to me it would more be about stripping away the false masks people like to hide behind, take away the excuses, take away the lies, take away the false ideologies, and go from there. because even if i were to know what someone was truly thinking, what they truly wanted and what they wanted to gain, that in no way means i would be able to understand them. they ways in which people form their thoughts into ambitions and ideas are theirs and theirs alone. i may know what they want to do, and i may feel what they feel, but people are different enough in that if you take two people who go through the same experiences, have the same ideologies, and the same convictions, there is a high enough probability that they would go on to take different actions that truly understanding everyone in the world is a practical impossibility, even given magical pixie dust.
Haven’t been replying cause of super duper projects and exams and presentations on the line and doing it ONE MAN ARMY style, but I thought I’d skip everything and just give everyone the truest impression of 00.
http://shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=77942
This explains anything and everything about how 00 works. At least in terms of combat.
SDF-Macross pursued this in its own way from episode 26 on. I’ll gladly watch any other anime that takes this on.
—
Despite my being a total non-fan of the Newtype concept and its related phenomena, Gundam 00 took this further in an interesting way.
It makes me remember how much of a fantasy Gundam is, and this does not make it bad. Being a fantasy, of course it’ll romanticize violence, because it romanticizes giant robots! So in a world where giant robots are important and their pilots are heroes, where would peace come from?
Magic pixie dust. That’s where. It allows everyone to have done whatever violence they did, and through understanding one another via Trans-am burst there is less consequence of violence to focus on in the narrative. Rather, only a future where people understand each other more due to absolute or near-absolute empathy.
Neon Genesis Evangelion did this by turning everyone into Tang, a singular consciousness. Gundam 00 doesn’t, which seems preferable because we will retain our identities. However, the magic pixie dust has to account for more. Then again, if we accept how magical it really is within the narrative, then sure.
@omo
Fair enough your call, but I am still curious as to how you see things. I am garrisoned in San Francisco what could you possibly say that would irritate me that the locals haven’t already said? Still I think when you threw down “post 9/11″ that you weren’t going to just discuss Gundam 00 and anime. As for taking things seriously I think it is a necessity given what I do to earn a living, I don’t think buying into the fear mongering helps me much in any way, nor does it help the general population. Again what is your version of 9/11? We can all see the same event and draw different conclusions, so I am curious as to how you saw it and what you think changed, maybe you noticed something I didn’t, hell I am not perfect.
@GGear0323
I suspect that even if you strip away all the masks that you might not like what you find, I have doubts that people are by default decent, but it could be otherwise.
@D=
I wonder if those weapons were made in HRL…
@ghostlightning
Pleasant as it sounds comrade I think if you consider what other people you would have to listen to grand schemes of linking people to some sort of overmind isn’t going to be painless or even desirable. Certainly I don’t think you really want to peer into what goes on in my mind.
I tried to watch Gundam 00… honest. Plausibility and Anime are such antagonistic forces that I have never avoided a show simply because it is unreasonable or lacks internal coherence. That being said, I managed to suppress my Gundam gag reflex right up to the point where the show had the fighting in Northern Ireland stop because of the threat of Gundams.
Huh? How on Earth do you scare indigenous freedom fighters or terrorists into submission with the threat of a handful of super-powerful mecha? No doubt the English would be shocked to learn that overwhelming firepower is the solution to combating the IRA.
If the Gundam 00 character development had been anything other than mind-numbingly cliche I might have stuck with the show a bit longer. I attended Berkley for 6 years (3 undergrad and 3 post grad)and I had to endure the ignorant proselytizing of seemingly countless upper middle class hippie wannabees with their misguided geo-political pretensions… but at least my classmates were mildly entertaining. At the very least, Gundam 00 wouldn’t have been any worse with Naked-Guy as a character.
dts
The character development in S2 is great. Setsuna spends 1/3rd of the season flying around in 00-Raiser trying to get Saji laid, in true Bro fashion.
I don’t really have much to add, but a wayward comment by the OP gave me a thought.
“I think Dr. Freeman could take on a Gundam. Might take a pretty scripted cinematic sequence and some Quicksave abuse, but it could happen.”
I’m just saying man, politics are as real in 00 as sex was real in Power Rangers.
Speaking of that, http://www.starcraft2.com/features/terran/terratron.xml is way more GAR than megadeus.
@Crusader
Fan of Hobbes, are you?
@Grendel
To be honest, I think that more CB’s capability lay with Veda and its (apparently) nigh-infalliable tactician. As you note, the English often, if not typically, had an overwhelming advantage in firepower. England did not, however, possess an information network like Veda. If we are to believe that CB had its hands on a pseudo-AI with thousands of information portals (i.e. Innovados) and complete access to all information passed along electronic pathways, it is not much of a stretch to assume that CB not only possessed overwhelming strength, but also the knowledge required to use that strength in a manner that could deeply affect any organization, be it a huge army or a scattered terrorist cell.
@Eirias
“England did not, however, possess an information network like Veda. If we are to believe that CB had its hands on a pseudo-AI with thousands of information portals (i.e. Innovados) and complete access to all information passed along electronic pathways, it is not much of a stretch to assume that CB not only possessed overwhelming strength, but also the knowledge required to use that strength in a manner that could deeply affect any organization, be it a huge army or a scattered terrorist cell.”
For a moment, let us assume that you are correct. Of course the fact of the matter is that in Gundam 00’s universe the fighting in Northern Ireland stopped previous to a widespread realization that Veda was a factor. A handful of Gundams drop out of the sky and stop a couple of armed conflicts? How is that going to deter the IRA?
Regardless, the proverbial sword cuts either way. If the terrorists and freedom fighters are aware that their mail is being read, they will find increasingly clever and primitive ways to circumvent those who have a tech advantage. If the terrorists and freedom fighters are unaware that they are being read like an open book, why would they suddenly capitulate after centuries of bloody conflict? In either case, the Gundam 00 scenario involving Northern Ireland was ludicrous.
dts
I think omo has a very good point though in that melding MSG 00 and politics / philosophy is more likely to impede the significance and clarity of your discussions on either topic than furthering them. Also omo’s approach is more oriented to MSG 00, whilst Crusader arguably comes in somewhere in between. In fairness though, I don’t believe MSG 00 “paints” an acceptable or even adequate picture of war. Reason one: GN Parti-WTF? Crusader has exhaustively referenced all the others.
Crusader on the other hand does offer a perceptive critique of what MSG 00 seems so intent on being but fails, and (in a way) grounds his opinions onto a topic we can relate to. However I struggle to see the necessity of this ‘grounding’ given its obvious Crusader you have very strong opinion on issues that eclipse the remnant of real-world significance MSG 00 possibly offers. With that said given this is an ‘anime blog’ I accept this but it becomes very difficult to dissect your political views.
I qualify – I can see the said ‘real-world’ implications of MSG 00 when I watched it, but I definitely did not attempt to find any real-world messages or critically analyze it. Why? I think this goes without saying.
R U GUSY STLL TALKIN ABUT POLITIX?
It’s a shame shit like GN-plotholeticles and Evil Haro Supreme and Infested GaGa Squadron did not generate enough rage beyond that of the weekly discussion and is replaced by the generic politics equal to the politics of Justice League Unlimited.
Sorry buddy but if you care more about how the fucking government deals with a bunch of superheroes than whatever the fuck the superheroes do, then somethings done wrong. Thankfully JL was not a failure.
but that was my point, Crusader. 00 tried to tell us that by understanding one another, we could achieve peace. first of all, i dont believe anyone can ever truly understand anyone else, regardless of how many psychology classes one may have taken. second, if it really does come down to just stripping away the masks, i dont see how that makes things better. i already suspect that my neighbors steal my shit; if i find out they did, because i know their thoughts, why wouldnt i go kick their ass, fucking thieves. maybe if this whole GN miracle was a staple of society since a persons birth, things may be different, but what just because i may know what motivates a little jihad-kun to want to blow shit up doesnt mean i wouldnt still want to slap him across the face for acting stupid.
Another thing that Crusader seemed to have missed is that the ‘war on terror’ isn’t a purely ideological struggle from the enemy’s POV. It’s a reaction to simple theft. A certain middle-eastern country takes land, kicks out the former inhabitants, and maintains an apartheid state. It also talks about wiping out everyone it neighbors. We cover for this misbehaving theocracy and send it military aid (for what benefit to us is not clear).
Peace is, in fact, quite clear. Return what you stole and stick to the terms of prior agreements. This is not an ideological conflict. It’s a material conflict. Ideology only plays its part if you believe taking is tantamount to title. The jihad-kuns in the world attack because we’re covering for a thief. That’s realpolitik for you.
Now, the question is, what’s in it for US? People are surprisingly keen on peace when it’s in their interest.
It should also be noted that Religions have usually outlasted States. Target enemies you can win against, keep the company of those who are worth fighting for, else avoid a fight altogether.
@grendel
Indeed were it so easy to get the IRA to stop altogether.
@Eej
Sure keep telling yourself that we all know what kind of relationship those two had…
@Eirias
It’s not so much of being a fan of Hobbes, its more like he was right human behavior in the absence of a state.
@SDS
Perhaps.
@D=
At least we had Cadmus In JLU…
@GGear0323
Indeed knowing does not imply actually caring.
@passerby
Were it so easy, given the bleak history of it all and the other standing issues I am not convinced ending the that long running ruckus will change much of anything. After all the Jihad-kuns of the world have been known to screw each other over on occasion (such as September of 1970 in Jordan) and it seems that they are not in agreement over just how far the elders of Zion have infiltrated other groups…if only it were so simple.