I must admit that my knowledge of Cao Cao before the Romance of the Three Kingdoms era is very low (which means the later period of Eastern Han and its fall). I would probably need some help from nice readers to enlighten me on some issues that I will be discussing here. Obviously, rather than talking about the story, I prefer to highlight how the anime portrays and shapes the Cao Cao in a light that is largely different compared to the stereotypical vicious villain in most drama/anime series. Also, for those who are interested in historical anime, this is a series that you should watch EVEN IF you do not know much about that time period.
Anyway, Episode 3 spoke of Cao Cao’s posting as the captain of the North gate in the city of Luoyang. For those who do not know about Luoyang, Luoyang is considered to be one of the ancient centers for China civilization. In other words, it is the capital where the emperor stays. Cao Cao is still trying his best despite his tender age (he is twenty at this period of his life) to change the corrupt government. What is the next move for this young Cao Cao who would one day be a legend of China history?
Episode summary
This episode started with a conspiracy by an eunuch who was in the alliance with Zhang Ran. He wanted Cao Cao to kill one of the uncles of the king. The plan is to ask the uncle, a supposedly curious man, to go through the North gate and break the rules. It was to make Cao Cao punish and eventually kill the uncle from punishment as to blame him. Cao Cao did exactly as the eunuch expected and ordered to give 200 slaps to the uncle. After 47 slaps, the uncle died from sheer pain. Seizing the opportunity, the eunuch came out to assault his attempt to kill the uncle. However, it turned out that Cao Cao already expected such a thing, and the uncle was actually safe to observe the tyranny of the eunuch.
After the incident, Cao Cao then asked the uncle to send his proposal that contains the tyranny and corruption of the court to the emperor. Through an elaborate festival, Cao Cao captured the emperor’s attention through an exquistie sword dance. They also survived an ambush by Zhang Ran’s man in the procession. Cao Cao managed to give the proposal to the emperor, but also realized that the emperor was a man who only cared for lust and fun. Cao Cao also recognized that the power in the court is strongly controlled by the group of eunuchs led by Zhang Ran. In other words, he knew that his proposal would fall on deaf ears. As expected, he is sent as a “promotion” to Dunqiu County to remove him from power. However, this will pave the way to strengthen Cao Cao, as we already know.
Thoughts
I personally thought that Souten Kouro should be considered the definitive series for anyone who enjoys historical anime. Contrary to belief, I think that this series does not require you to have any knowledge of the Three Kingdoms Era. However, for those who are well acquainted, the series is pretty dedicated to keeping it close to the true history of the era, rather than the romanticized novel version. The chief reason why I like this anime is how it does not pander to an obvious black-white axis toward the characters in this series, but see them as unique men who all have their ideals to unify China. Obviously, rather than sticking with the extremely biased portrayal in general media of Cao Cao as a villain (stupid novel), this provides a more accurate portrayal of Cao Cao as a brilliant ruler. I will probably write more about this when the other main characters appear, so let me focus on the episode at hand.
Before I go on, a brief description of the crisis in the Eastern Wu period when Cao Cao is the captain of Luoyang’s North district is required. One of the key reasons for the downfall of Eastern Han (the period before the Three Kingdoms Era) is the amount of corruption in the capital that resulted in a lot of suffering for the agricultural-based population. Unlike modern times, agriculture is perhaps the most important form of economy, with the majority of the population depending on farming to survive. A government that cannot take care of the well being of farmers is poor governance, and an imperial court that requires a revolution. That is why Cao Cao often talks about changing the world, and it is a recurring theme for the last three episodes about how a man of ambition is still unstained by the powers to be.
Living in such an era, it is amazing how Cao Cao manages to stick to his ideals so strongly without compromising on rules. Rather than vicious, he was a strict superior that cares for his men and is willing to die for them in any situation. Recollecting on episode three, it’s just a show of Cao Cao’s great character when he punished one of his men for insubordination before making the man his assistant as a show of how he is willing to trust someone after they showed clear support for him. You can perhaps interpret this as fear for death, but I rather see it as awe for a man who feared no one but justice and heaven. Despite little insight on how he interacts with his men, it is clear that Cao Cao clearly deserved the saying of “”You would be a capable minister in peaceful times and an unscrupulous hero in chaotic times.”
The appearance of Liu Hong was a clear sign for Cao Cao that the imperial court is in chaos. It is sad that a man of such optimism that justice will be delivered was shown that corruption is prevalent even in the throne. It is said that a good leader can bring a turbulent nation together while a corrupted leader will split a nation apart. Controlled by the eunuchs in the court, the festival showed everything that is wrong of the nation then. The poor is rising, the emperor cared little of the world, assassinations are open to the world without any fear of repercussions while corrupted officials abused their power. Is it little wonder why the ending of the era was waiting for a revolution to begin?
It’s really little wonder why Cao Cao is a rare being that they fear. That’s why he is sent away. Zhang Ran probably knew that it will be hard to bring down Cao Cao through any means that they could currently, so a “promotion” is probably best for them to remove Cao Cao without killing him. Anyway, I have a question for those who knows their history more. Who is that uncle? Is he anyone prominent in the future? Also, what do you feel about the anime’s approach about Cao Cao’s childhood, which is honestly less documented than his persona in the Three Kingdoms Era?
10 Comments
-Jihad Kun is VA for episode 1: FAIL
-Xu Chu is a complete fatass with ugly animation when in action: FAIL
-Fights overall sucked balls like Naruto filler: FAIL
-Art style is grim/dark/moody and yet has zero “Chinese Epicness”: FAIL
-Stratagems/ideas/etc are so basic it makes Tytania look smart: FAIL
-Wisdom talk/poetics/etc are completely misused: FAIL
-Cao Cao’s child hood portrays him the same as Jihad-kun: FAIL
-Everyone looks like a scrub compared to Cao Cao in overall stats: FAIL
Of course I only watched episode 1, so this is subject to change. But I generally don’t watch half-baked shows. This also has the “feel” of the Kurozaka or whatever animation, which while had trippy ass fights, was only decent because the “feeling” of the show was as weird as the manga.
It’s like, what if Naruto was made with the same feeling of Tenjou Tenge or Ikkitousen? ROTK and 3 kingdom era’s most important part, regardless of history, facts, etc etc, is all about the presence, the feeling, the atmosphere. If you can’t even portray that without turning it into ARE YA READAYYY? PUT YA GUNS ON! then you aren’t going to make a ROTK anime that’s worthy of a top anime.
It’s pretty biased to say, but I’m kind of like saying how to fit the culture’s image into the show. This isn’t Japan, stop showing Sakura trees so much and random bullshit designs. Look at how the movie 300 went. It retained that EPIC feeling of the Spartans, and there was never a point where an outsider watched the film even during the talking where you went “This is Sparta? Doesn’t feel like it.” whereas with SK I’m pretty much like, W T F is this? Date Masamune’s backyard?
In the end though, I’m just hella jaded against anime now. So take my words with a grain of salt. When in-game cinematics are outperforming animes in quality, there’s really no point in having standards for anime anymore as far as quality goes. And when you remove that out of the way, there’s no reason why you’d watch something opposed to reading it.
Or hell put it this way, SK feels as close to ROTK as Ikkitousen did. That’s how bad it is imo, and the only redeeming thing is that it’s historically accurate when Cao Cao or whoever doesn’t pull off amazing bullshit that has very little thought put behind it.
Out of context: This has to be the best anime ever made. The Big Rigs of anime. FEAST YOUR EYES!
http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=6391
I’d been jaded towards anime for years now. And music. And video games. And the list goes on. There comes a time where you have to stop watching (listening, reading, playing) what random fans tell you to watch and only bother with stuff that honestly catches your eye.
Let’s be honest here. It’s a long-established piece of folk wisdom that 90% of everything is crap. Sturgeon’s Law we call it. Anime is no exception.
Also, 300 is so hilariously historically inaccurate that it’s almost the point. (Note that Spartan hoplites had huge technological advantages over Persian troops, and were pretty much the most heavily armed and armored infantry on the continent at the time. 300 depicts them naked and glistening in battle.) Most people’s perception of Ancient Greece has been corrupted by Hollywood imagery that realistic portrayals of Greece are thought to be “unrealistic” and that the faked Greek-isms of Hollywood are felt to be more authentic. The operative word being “felt.”
300 is much worse than showing sakura blossoms in Luoyang. It’s like watching Charlemagne using Matrix-style wire fu while wearing Nurgle-corrupted tactical dreadnought armour and holding a giant battleship-scale wave motion cannon in his left hand while brandishing Saber’s Excalibur in his right.
(Not that I wouldn’t mind watching the above idea, though.)
As someone with an interest in European history, from ancient antiquity up until the late 19th century, it was a travesty. As an average filmgoer guy, though, it’s fun to sit through and shut my brain down for. I take it you’re more of a Chinese history person (I’m probably the only other person here who reads RoT, mind), but you can see why I’d get up in arms about your 300 comparison.
You misunderstand me. I’m not a Chinese history, let alone any history person. I care about the awesomeness, and how “authentic” it can be in terms of it’s “corruption” that you speak of. I actually don’t care so much about the facts, as I do about how an author uses creativity to reinforce the facts or to add a spin to it. Sometimes, you have to remove the authenticity completely like in 300, but that’s because you aim for something different.
300 is awesome because it captures the “legendary” feeling. While I agree with all the flaws you stated (As I never said 300 was a highly rated film) I still think just the WAY they filmed it was awesome. Everything from the shading, the camera angles, whenever they slow-mo, to the music, etc etc. It was all “epic”. I wasn’t telling you to look at 300 and say HEY LOOK NAKED MEN ARE TAKING OUT ELEPHANTS. I mean no shit that was horrid, but for one thing, it came from Hollywood, and my standards just don’t even begin when I watch a western film. So please understand that it has nothing to do with the “This looks like how 300 was in true history” and more like “Leonidas totally rocks in a way that is unique to this film!”. Perhaps I’m wrong, since I don’t watch many movies, but can anyone name off the top of their head a historic film that captured the same type of feel as 300? I’m guessing no. I mean I can even say 300 and LOTR felt different even during the fighting scenes simply because of how 300 used it’s camera differently and how they implemented SF4 water brushing to their frames, despite the fact that some major battles in both films just consist of men using swords to slice ugly people with weapons and have western “epic” music in the background.
If we were to look at the 3 historical mangas I read (because those are the only ones I know of and think are good), it’s easy to see that I’m completely opposite of you if you prioritize accuracy.
Historie: Coming in at 3rd place, the incredibly noob-friendly drawings somehow don’t fail me despite myself being incredibly critical on art. Why? Because it fits how the manga tells it’s story. The words in the scanlations at least are cut and dry, as if bare boned. It “fits” the simple art of Historie. How Eumenes and everyone else acts also goes right along with this concept of “simple”. They interact in a way that while you can’t tell which generic soldier belongs to which origin, you wouldn’t need to because they’d just flat out TELL you in the story one way or another. There’s no subtlety. It’s an incredibly refreshing way to do a series in contrast to ROT.
Vinland: Where to start? Thorfinn who is historically a explorer is now given a bloody past. This bloodshed of a story will only be a means to how he comes to his historical accounts venturing to “Vinland”, yet it’s so much more appealing to us than just some hobo who wants to travel around the globe. I can’t comment much else, since Thorfinn only has a beginning right now, but we can all figure out how awesome it was when they finally pulled in his “full name” and only then realize that the seeds of exploring were planted in the boy from the early early chapters, with absolutely no hint that he was even a real person in historical accounts. That’s originality.
Askeladd makes up the majority of the portion though. You can tell that had Vinland started without this character, there wouldn’t be a serialization to begin with. The man lacks nothing as a character, but more importantly bringing us back to the point of what I find awesome about historical series is how the author made Askeladd into someone as prominent as King Arthur all while still making sense. To come up with the idea that someone was able to use history to their advantage in a historical series itself, and build on that “legend” pulled out another possibility on the legend of King Arthur itself; that it was made up of multiple people all over Europe in different ages who used the same “persona” or even name in Askeladd’s case, albeit he is of direct lineage.
Ravages of Time: This one has enough gems that I don’t even need to list them all. Just the creativity of how you explain the happenings of ROTK is enough. Everything from Zhao Yun and Diao Chan’s character change to something like how Pang Tong was behind the Zhang Xiu ambush on Cao Cao in the recent arc instead of historically attributed to Jia Xu was pure win. Who cares if the guy made it up? It’s fucking brilliant. If Lu Bu ends up faking his death once more at the end and somehow ends up as some herbit like Master Roshi, I still would praise it as long as the man does it with the same level of focus as he does with every other plot hole. While half my brain goes “this is fake, there’s no damn way it was THIS specific and people were THAT damn good back then”, the other half WANTS to believe that “Yeah well, if you’re gonna make hundreds of thousands be so damn loyal to you, I guess you must be as awesome as Sun Ce is” or “Makes sense that Lu Bu while being a complete jackass of history is still one up higher than Guan Yu if the man pretty much raped Cao Cao’s armed generals with his FISTS”.
So there you have it. The only importance of historical accuracy for me is to use as a basis on which I have to compare the authors imagination and writing skills. While it is amazing to create a hurricane of enchanted story lines around a completely untouched historical fact, I do not mind even if you break the fact itself, so long as it sticks and enhances that original image, feeling, etc that you are writing on. I wouldn’t read the old ROTK novel and say Diao Chan x Lu Bu is stupid because DC is not even a real person, because it only added to the romanticism of the story, not detract.
And that is the problem I have with SK. I clearly stated it, that I believe that SK retains too much of that Kurozaka feel that the studio did earlier last season. It retains that “dirty” feeling with it’s color palette. It’s drawings are not unique in any way, everything from the body language to the action only compliments the terrible voice acting done for the series. I’m not asking for hong kong style historical VA, but for the love of god, stop recycling Jihad kun. All this only adds to me rejecting Cao Cao, not because he doesn’t fit how “I saw him in XYZ”, but because the Cao Cao of SK is of a image that demands different things that fit him. A Cao Cao who is so badass in battle would not need the damn episodes constantly talking about his generic generals who don’t do jack, and a series that is so grim dark Kurozaka acid trippy doesn’t need to spew wisdom lines at each other without even saying their own damn words.
Had the action actually been up to the standard like those acid trip fights of Kurozaka, and had Cao Cao talked in a more casual tone with a different VA and didn’t try to have such a “proud” body language and used his own words, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. But the way the first episode hit me on the wisdom scene was basically and just ruined it. That and fatass just pulling a Naruto Shippuden quality ass whopping. Sure there was foreshadowing that Xu Chu is good at weather telling, but WTF? The pacing was horrible, and after Xu Chu came out I was more left with “Oh I seee….” and not “WOAH XU CHU SO SMRT”. And that’s me being nice. It’s totally opposite of how half the internet can accept the bullshit of Yammi being 0 espada because Yammi just acts in a way that the chapter totally felt right. Looks, body language, words, you name it, all fit the super hoss that was Yami. Xu Chu was worse than your generic Ikkitousen warrior, AND he was only introduced shortly in that episode. At least give time for a character to build before using the “OH I C WHAT U DID THAR” card.
But yes, I agree with you totally. 300 IS hilarious. It was also epic. And you nailed it, in that it’s completely inaccurate, because that WAS the point. Just the way the damn fights were done with how each spartan looking like they were flame broiled on Burger King Grills SHOULD HAVE TIPPED YOU OFF. I have no problem admitting I snoozed through the talking most of the time, and was only interested in the GAR action. That’s what MADE the film……NO? You can say stuff like ROT is at a higher level where they try to make a balance of accuracy/awesomeness/etc/etc instead of just focusing on awesomeness, but it doesn’t change the fact that 300 had the correct “awesomeness” for it’s film purpose, something SK lacks.
Don’t know if you understood that. Cause again, horrible engrish, so yeah. Also butting in, the Sakura blooms weren’t so much bad because they were Sakura trees, but only because again, it doesn’t fit due to the IMAGE of SK. HI HI KUROZAKA COLOR PALETTE DARK GRIM UGLLLLLYYYY and all of a sudden PINK. You ever notice how ROTK adaptations or hell even DYNASTY WARRIOR video games don’t make the Orchid Peach Tree scene between Guan/Zhang/Liu all DARK AND GRITTY and instead makes it feel “light” and “sakura bloomy” instead? Yeah that’s right, because it FITS. It’s suppose to be a joyous thing. Too bad those TV adaptations don’t have the same problem because they use live action, but that doesn’t excuse how you can lack the common sense for color taste. Look at the screen caps man. It looks like it’s about to RAIN half the time. Every image with a person in it reinforces the downer darkness because there’s a lack of lighting. Then it peaks off when the ugly and the fat uglies that come on statge with Cao Cao with his weird ass look being the most Bishie of the entire cast. Is it like a Jihad-kun MUST have if he VA’s for you? That his character must look fuckable in SOME way so that when the VA appears live, people won’t go WOW the VA looks WAY better than that FUGLY. What happened to the GAR or stern look? Or NORMAL? This also applies to everyone else. Why does everyone who is “evil” look “evil”.
Are you sure the series is being accurate to the historic records of RoTK Impz? To me it seems like the anime is faithful to neither the Records or Romance of Three Kingdoms.
Anyway, for that reason, I don’t have any expectations of the ‘epic RoTK feel and atmosphere’ that D= is talking about. This is very over the top period action series starring honourable version of Cao Cao, and it has been fun so far.
Souten Kouro isn’t faithful to either the histories or the Romance. It incorporates bits and pieces into its own interpretation.
In regards to the Qin Shi Huang debate in EP1, while I disliked the setup behind it, I felt that the debate itself was well done. Conducting a debate through quoting the classics fits in very well with the romanticized image of Imperial Chinese culture and Cao Cao’s historical character – after all, he was a celebrated poet and he did have a strong scholarly streak.
Having said that, while I did like EP1 and EP3, EP2 and EP4 were misses for me. While the show needed to show the Eastern Han’s failures and these failures’ consequences in regards to its people, a wildly out of place, one-episode love interest and an unnecessarily florid sword dance probably weren’t the best ways to do it. All in the manga, I suppose.
Still, this is pretty much the only show I’m following this season: I’m looking forward to Guan Du and am curious about how they’ll depict Lu Bu (probably won’t top Ravages of Times’s depiction though, existentialist Lu Bu is the best Lu Bu). Sengoku Basara’s kinda fun, but I’m really beginning to think that Nobunaga burnt Campcom’s collective ancestors at Honno-ji or something. That and I think it’s a weaker story than the history, some of the character designs are too out there, and I guess I’ll still follow it hoping that the Oda will still trash the Takeda at Nagashino. Oh please please please please please . . .
@Monophtalmus
Conducting a debate through quotes and classic fits is one thing. To do it without even remotely showing the application of it is a joke. Just like how you learn from as early as elementary school that stating a direct phrase or quote must always be accompanied by your own words, so too are these words of wisdom. Ravages of Time benefit from always using them in a chapter by chapter basis, and strongly imprints them in your mind through the events of the chapter as that supporting statement. There was none of that in Ep1, making it garbage. Basically, it’s making those phrases RELEVANT. Some of which, had NONE.
I never complained about Cao Cao being a scholar. It’s his STRENGTH. What is NOT his strength is where he bullshits episode 2 and comes off as someone who can FIGHT well. Guess what? He can’t. Had he even had a remote speck of fighting ability, do you think history would have forgotten about it? Even gimp ass generals in wikipedia have their obligatory “prowess” details, yet Cao Cao had none. Sure, it’s fiction, it’s their version, but it’s adding an element to a character who already has so much going for him. It’s like giving Lelouch the piloting and fighting ability of Suzaku. What kinda shitty ass series would Geass be then? At this point with subs up to 3, I actually think Cao Cao looks way more bad ass than his 5 tiger generals. Now that is fail.
Ep 2 is just plain stupid the ENTIRE time. AMORE? Oh please. You take the Kurozaka studio and you make a LOVE episode? Why don’t we go take the studio who drew http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=6391 and make them do Final Fantasy Advent Children 2? I know I’ll love it, I know Koda will love it, hell I bet Crusader would have a field day with his damn poems and songs. Impz would go straight for it. LOOK AT THAT BEAUTIFUL FACE.
Episode 3 actually made me somewhat satisfied. And by somewhat I mean everything after the jail/judge part and before the giant old man who’s arms are twice the size of Lebron James’ legs. Let’s not get into the old man part, cause that was just plain generic and stupid, but hey it’s more of a personal peeve of not liking ugly drawing style combined with over the top power levels, so I can see some people liking it. Now the judge part, that was PLAIN RETARDED. The guy CLAIMS to be IRON JUDGE, and Lunar subs clearly states that not even excruciating circumstances budge the guy. So how the HELL did the I AM SOU SOU (He doesn’t deserve the words Cao Cao imo) AND MY PROOF IS HEAVEN! THEREFORE IF I LIVE I WILL FIX THE COUNTRY AND GIVE CHANGE! Where the FUCK did he support his statement? I know the system is broken in the first place, but the judge SUPPOSEDLY was immovable regardless. I mean, how the hell did the judge go from HEAVEN DOESN’T GIVE ANSWERS to WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH YOUR LIFE? I swear, I thought I had it all figured out, where it goes from HEAVEN DOESN’T GIVE ANSWERS -> HOW YOU GONNA PROVE IT BOY? Souten Kouro amazed me even more; it offered a COP OUT. Manga or not, if this stuff actually follows the original series, then the series is just like the billion other ROTK series that are basically ignored by the general public even within asia, and for good reason too. At least DW just plain STICKS WITH OVER THE TOP, and Sengoku Basara proved not being serious WORKS. If you suck at telling a real story, DON’T DO IT.
So yes, out of 3 episodes so far (2 of which I watched after wards only because I felt it would be unfair to leave my comments here without giving it a chance) I found one episode with maybe 10 minutes of things acceptable. And I’m pretty sure that fat ass uncle didn’t DIE from one swing of the super bat. Even then, I still thought it was okay, because it “fit” the Kurozaka slaughterfest studio. But the REST of this crap? COME ON. Standards people. I bet U.R.C can make a better 3 kingdoms story than this, OH WAIT THEY DID, it’s called HENTAI.
And I only recently skimmed the OP and ED. OP pictures are Kurozaka-ish, so whatever, song isn’t even remotely 3 kingdom-ish when Koei has been giving out examples for YEARS how to combine a electric guitar with dynasty style music, so there goes your points for “fitting in”, and the ending I didn’t even remember the impression of the song despite having just watched ep3 and starting to type right here because the entire damn ending scroll was just BLUE SKY. Why don’t you just be like Kubo Tite and just leave the damn background WHITE for god sakes? Then you REALLY save budget. Or if you wanted to use white text, be like Kubo again, and SPILL SOME INKZ. The man gets away with using less than 10 lines of dialogue in some chapters, WHY CAN’T YOU use the same approach for CREDITS? After all, the preview doesn’t even show PICTURES, just giant text. See? You ALREADY knew how to be like Kubo.
But yeah Mono, I get that this series has a bit of interest, but I’m jumping off the wagon, not that I ever had more than one foot on it. If you even remotely value watching anime for ya know, an anime’s sake, I suggest you try other shows this season, despite it not being very awesome.
Hell, the one series in the blog preview that NO ONE wanted to review, I thought was amazingly NOT bad. Not saying it was GOOD, heavens no, but Basquash had to have had the most “fitting” music out of all the animes I’ve tried. (and I’ve tried quite a bit, albeit I have not tried RisPara) It was the entire opposite of Ep 1 for Souten Kouro for me, because despite such STUPID designs and STUPID fanservice and just plain STUPID everything, a fresh voice actor (Jin from Kannagi opposed to ORE WA GUNDAM DA!!!! Oh how I regret saying this guy sucked at playing Setsuna, because the truth is, it’s his 3rd best role EVER, first being Takami from Ouran Host Club and second being Yagami Raito while his BILLIONS of other roles he uses the same stupid voice from World Destruction) being the shonen driving some ghetto looking “robot” schooling the majority of the court with movements made possible by QUALITY animation combined with a TRIPLET of singers (2 from Frontier) singing a song made me actually download the rest despite me knowing the series can never be more than OKAY. I find it sad how one show manages to take “minorities” combined with prejudice sterotypes (aka KFC chicken as regular food and GHETTO CARS as robot cockpits) and make it FIT, kind of like how Michiko to Hatchin kind of just WORKED. It was never SUPER, but it WORKED.
As for Oda’s villain streak, you just gotta understand; Basara is insanely over the top. If they used Basara’s approach to 3 kingdoms, Dong Zhuo would eat babies while Cao Cao would kill handicap people as Lu Bu punts kittens while holding onto some multi lance that branches out like Cloud’s omni-sword fighting off everyone. Or maybe he’d be a gundam like Honda, and then we can have cross series fighting. Hell, Basara’s approach makes crap like Bleach look tame. It’s G-Gundam level of GAR and STUPID. Maybe more.
In regards to the debate, my initial impression is that it could’ve been done better, but I’d hesitate to pass judgment because I cannot understand the original Japanese and I do not trust the subs to convey the exact meanings and nuances. However, I felt that the debate was relevant because Cao Cao is often compared with Qin Shi Huang in modern media and as a result – I’ve interpreted the quotes as composing an ironic critique of the man that Cao Cao became – namely, someone who was wise in governance but nevertheless unable to create a long-lasting state due to the compassion that was lacking in him. Or at least, that’s one particularly popular Confucian viewpoint.
I agree with the sentiment that an ubermensch Cao Cao is an uninteresting Cao Cao. I’d like to point out though, that neither Yue Jin nor Yu Jin nor Xu Huang nor Zhang Liao nor Zhang He have appeared yet and it’s hard to be less badass than someone unseen.
My thoughts on the episodes pretty much echo yours – I’m less optimistic now about this series than I was then. At this point, all I really want is to someday see a series based on the historical personages, something with real appreciation/understanding for who these people were and the scale of what they did. Until then, I’ll be content with reading Ravages of Time and laughing at Dynasty Warriors.
In regards to Sengoku Basara, I understand well enough that it’s based on pure Rule of Cool. I just think that Rule of Cool works better when it’s not based on historical settings because the historical trappings become largely pointless. When bother calling the man with the six swords Masamune Date when he shares nothing with Masamune Date except a crest and a same-named subordinate? Having said that, I’ll admit that mostly, I’m just one of those people who get whiny about historical accuracy and thinks that the historical characters are a lot cooler than these cheap imitations.
So you are saying the debate foreshadows who Cao Cao becomes. Sure, but that only makes relevance to the future, not the present. Which is still a failing mark.
First Emperor of Han was pretty much Cao Cao except an even bigger jackass and a bit smarter and way luckier to have been born earlier in a time where people were dumber. Doesn’t prove jack that lacking compassion = GG you lose. Look at how Bush won.
Out of all the Wei generals, only Zhang Liao, Xu Chu, Dian Wei, Xu Huang, and Pang De made me go “Oh shit this guy can FIGHT”. The rest of the generals while fighters, still never had GAR moments and were always just being actual generals instead of generals who TORE SHIT UP. In that regard, how are they gonna prove themselves better than Xiahou brothers and Cao cousins? You gonna make those 4 jobbers? I don’t think so cause Dun was considered Cao Cao’s right hand, and all the buttsex in the world wouldn’t get you in that position most likely in that era.
Wu faction is a solid example. Sun Quan will never be cool because his damn brother jacked EVERYTHING. Lil Conq had brains AND brawn. He was Lu Bu v2. No one under him had chance for the same level of glory as Zhang Liao or Guan Yu because he pioneered it all. The most famous of Wu are Rikuson and Lu Meng, one who is solely brain, and another for beating Guan Yu. Not in 1v1 obviously, just plain being SMARTER. Had these two not beat the amazing opponents that they did, they would still be ZzZzZ. Taishi Ci was supposedly an equal to Sun Ce in FIGHT, yet all his achievements were fighting the Liu jobbers. And none of them were like WOAHHHHH GARRR. See? You just can’t get star status with that. Obviously my opinion on all the factions in 3 kingdoms is damn biased, but I would like to point out that ranging from everything that happened in accurate history, to mediums such as anime and mangas and novels and tv shows, there is a small similarity and it proves my point.
Shu is the faction where you show off.
Wu is the faction where you show your cunning.
Wei is the faction where you follow orders and get shit done. (Unless you’re Sima then you do the Wu thing too)
With the minor factions being:
Yuan is the faction where you become greedy and job
Liu is the faction where you like your successful brother SIT ON YOUR ASS but you lack the ALL STARS to do it
Dong is the faction that sets trends, then gets owned by outsourcing competitors who copy and make it better
Lu is the faction that set the trend of I CAN DO EVERYTHING and pretty much painted a GIANT BULLS EYE on your own ass
Tribes are the factions that are just “uncivilized” and act as generic jobbers and allies to everyone & you might as well call them expendable mercenaries
Am I missing anyone else? Meh whatever, these are stereotypes, but I bet you can feel what I’m getting at.
Or hell, let me put up a easy summary for the biggest flaw in this series:
When you want to take a character known for being “evil” and turn it around in his favor, you don’t just make him a pretty boy and give him the shonen qualities of a shoujo male lead with the abilities of a shonen male lead and then give him a VA who can’t even do any other part THAN a male lead with a feminine voice.
I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.I’m well aware that Liu Bang couldn’t be trusted with anything sharper than a letter-opener because he’d back-stab you with it. Actually, I’m not sure that he could be trusted with even that, because he’d still back-stab you with it. The criticism that Cao Cao lacked compassion is the traditional explanation why he failed to unite the land and establish lasting peace. It’s not correct and it’s more than a little bit ridiculous given how similar most founding emperors were to Liu Bang, but that’s how it is.
In regards to Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren and Xiahou Yuan were the ones good at waging war. Cao Hong was a non-entity, he’s most famous for the stinginess that got him in trouble with Cao Pi. Xiahou Dun was a talented administrator whose military high-point was getting shot in the eye. Cao Cao liked him so much because Xiahou Dun really was a genuinely nice, devoted guy – the kind of person who’d lend you money even if you weren’t friends and donate his extra earnings to charities.
In regards to Sun Ce, well, no arguments here. You’re not going to find many people fierce enough to be compared with Xiang Yu. Pity that Sun Ce was a bit too much like Xiang Yu.
Lu Bu’s the idiot that screams insults at everyone and then is surprised when everyone jumps on him. Dong Zhuo’s the one that sits in the capital getting fat and lazy. Wei’re the guys that actually get business done, and Wu just busy minding their own business down in the south. Liu Bei is the cunning one, what with the weeping and the, ‘Oh no, I couldn’t turn on him, he’s my relative,’ claim, and pulling a Liu Bang on the soonest opportunity.
Actually, come to think of it, what exactly are we arguing about? Are we even arguing over anything? This series really is looking more and more lacking as it goes on. Still, now that the Yellow Scarves have come around, maybe it’ll pick up. Maybe.
I correct you on one point: It’s not very related to romance of three kingdoms. ^^ It’s just loosely based on it.
But that aside, I agree with you, it’s an awesome anime!