Gundam Unicorn 02: Lies, Damned Lies, and Zeke History

89 Comments

1. JDMFLCL
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 1:28 am | Permalink

   SIEG ZEON! *hides*

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   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:16 am | Permalink

     That’s right Zeke COWER, BE AFRAID!

     Reply
2. Kuro
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 2:18 am | Permalink

   If Riddhe gets a taisa to protect, he would become Colosaur version 2.0 and I don’t want my Patrick Colosaur xeroxed, thank you.

   I have to say, I liked Marida too because the way she handled Banaghier was priceless and it was a refreshing sight to see someone on Zeon who speaks with good sense.

   Full Frontal unmasked made me squee for some reason. Full Frontal unmasked and with glasses? You asking for a Cinco Bajeena?

   That Char kick was nostalgic.

   Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:21 am | Permalink

     Not a xerox mind you, since Riddhe seems to be less of a love sick puppy and has better piloting skills. Besides Riddhe is in striking distance of two.

     No I want him to drop the mask and just go with cool shades.

     Reply
     • Kuro
       Posted November 13, 2010 at 1:47 am | Permalink

       Ah, Okay. Full Frontal Bajeena.

       Reply
3. Shance
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 2:27 am | Permalink

   Man, Unicorn bashing has never been this good.

   Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:22 am | Permalink

     What you talk’n ’bout Willis? This be Zeke bashing.

     Reply
4. Rhys Davies
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 5:07 am | Permalink

   For all the crap Marida gets away with, I do want to make two points in her favour:

   1: She has awesome theme music
   2: She PUNCHED the Unicorn’s cockpit – best way to non-leathally disable a pilot ever!

   Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:23 am | Permalink

     Correction ERUPTING BURNING FINGER is the best non-lethal way to disable a pilot, followed closely by SHINING FINGER.

     Reply
     • Shance
       Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:17 am | Permalink

       Maybe he meant UC-wise?

       Reply
5. ectholion
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:53 am | Permalink

   oh crusader ever so full of rage you forget the titans gassed 2 colonies, and you forget that kamille kept pedo char at bay by dominating is loli loving ass whenever he wasnt in his suit. though i can understand your sorrow for kamille covered in plot armor reduced yazan to zz gundam… and that just too cruel, but yes i share your sediment Zeon is lame though they have produced men and women of gratness like noris they also has produced people like the zabi family, and they hae lost in every series. I think its about time they give up, or at least get a non pedo leader.

   Reply
   • ectholion
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:58 am | Permalink

     also giving dangerous weapons to zeon, vist foundation what were you thinking??? thats like giving gass to captain Bask, or to Grehin Zabi. the loss of the federation would cause much more harm then good yea itsnot perfect but what government is?

     Reply
     • KrimzonStriker
       Posted November 11, 2010 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

       Considering that Visit’s thought alignment seemed to rather closely align with Zeon Deikum’s philosophy it would make sense in some capacity, and as he pointed out is was more along the lines of a test to see if the Sleeves could transcend their political agenda to something greater. Also, after nearly 20 years, though not quite as pronounced, the Federation’s continued control has proven detrimental to the growth of humanity, leading into a slow, painful stagnation as a whole, with nothing ever seemingly being resolved or changing. Under those conditions it often takes some revolutionary measures in order too as he put it “right the course of the Universal Century.”

       Reply
       • Crusader
         Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

         Not sure if the continued existence of the Federation is all that detrimental, it wasn’t the Feddies who polluted the Earth with colony drops and not every colony was worse off because of Feddie presence. Knowing just how hard it is to get to space let alone live up there while not having an environmental meltdown would make any one uneasy about a purely space bound existence, more over evolution does not happen the way Gundam as a whole would want us to believe. There is something to be said for political stability even if you suffer from political gridlock, for instance where would you rather live, the US, the PRC, or Somolia? In Somalia things change every day, in the US change is slow bickering quite common and nasty, in the PRC change can be quite fast, but brutal though not brutal to all equally.

         As for stagnation Zeon hasn’t changed much at all the rhetoric is still the same the, indignation that their fellow spacenoids (whom they have victimized from time to time), the same symbols are still venerated. In many ways Zeon is a religion in and of it self and their dogma is as monolithic as ever. They insist that newtypes and by extension all Zekes are the next step in evolution, but had they cared much for evolutionary biology even a successful mutation can lead to dead ends. Heck humans are a successful variant of our genus but even so we might just wipe ourselves out because our intelligence that made us so successful has also allowed us to split the atom as well as numerous other ways to kill and wreck stuff on an industrial scale.

         If Zekes were to rule I doubt that everyone would be better off, at least under the Federation most people are well off enough while in Zeke controlled Palau the place has been beggared, their wealth squandered on weapons and palaces of little use for the lot of them. Now a ECOAS Spec Ops team is about to do some dramatic renovations. So I don’t think the Zekes have a good plan on how to move forward, as for the growth of humanity it is still up to individuals to decide how to live their lives. I fail to see the need to promote human growth since there is so much variation in human personalties, as they say you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. Any effort to make humanity move in one direction through political action is pretty much going to be hard going and success is always far from certain.

         I wonder what you see as a painful stagnation? The people in the Federation seem to be well off enough in the colonies with a standard of living on par with a developed country. Poverty will always be there like it or not since resources are finite and there are people who are simply hopeless. For all the talk of newtypes the ones who take lead roles seem hardly better than the normals when it comes to personality. As for change I see changes in how the Feddies operate but hardly see any change in the Zekes.

         No all change is for the better remember that and as much as you hate stagnation are you really willing to put your finances at risk at a time you have enough to get by plus a little extra? If you live in a safe place would you risk riots and war to change things? As for drastic measures do you honestly think that the Great Leap Forward, and the Cultural Revolution really led China into a new age and made them better off? Both were drastic and revolutionary, but the cost was awful and in the end do you think things really changed? Was it the only way for it to have happened?

         Who’s to say Zeon was right about the course man was taking anyway, what gives them that right? When they declared Independence they just got slapped economically, the resulting war was one of their own choosing and they dragged in other spacenoids who did not want to be a part of the grandeur of Zeon. Even when they lost they kept at it bring more war and death to the Earth Sphere, every war sets all sides back economically. Maybe if Zeon wasn’t so warmongering and hostile the other groups would have less armaments and more money to spend on other things. Maybe the stagnation is the result of the Feddies having to build a military to ward off repeated Zeke aggression. The Zekes do not have a viable solution they are part of the problem, the most visible and active part of the problem. Paradise does not exist where they hold sway, and honestly I wonder what kind of person would rather live in poverty and support an aristocracy that claims to fight for their freedom when they themselves are thoroughly un-democratic. As much as Zekes prattle about Feddies having souls bound by gravity the lack of gravity has made Zeke brains and sense escape from their ears, Zekes can no longer see reality for they are blinded by the fires of their own arrogance and dogma. They too have stagnated and to a level much more pronounced that the Federation that they fight.

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         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 11, 2010 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

           Well, first thing we need to clear up is that I am NOT a defender of the Zabi family or of the many actions they’ve taken in Zeon’s name, which has in turn just as if not even more detrimental too his original vision. So moving on from that, if we’re talking about pollution and the destruction of the environment on Earth and the planet then that itself is a major criticism of the Federation by both Zeon Deikum and subsequently Char, who were in their own way major conservationist. I know, big argument is going to be about Char’s attempted nuclear winter, but there is a plausible logic in his thinking that through this rather extreme measure he could better preserve and help the planet recover instead of watching it waste away slowly by continued human inhabitation. At least within this context I rather think that we can leave Somalia out of the argument and focus on the PRC/U.S comparison, which having personal associations to both countries I often find myself rather ambivalent, with both systems having their upside and downsides depending on the situation. Often times I can indeed say that I wonder if it might be better if I or my family were living in China right now rather then the U.S (the current economic difficulties here and the ascension over there being one example, greater personal freedom here in comparison to over there being my counter-weight argument)

           All good points, if we look at what Zeon currently has become since the Zabi’s took power and the continued bitterness their past defeats engendered. Char’s defeat may or may not have sealed whatever hope of progress there was for the movement since Zeon Deikum’s death, I, just as Cardeas Vist, am still waiting to see if the Sleeves can transcend their simple political agenda concerning the state of Zeon. And that is the stagnation right there, for it remains very much a question/theory for this development/evolution because it has yet to be given a chance to do just that under the Federation. Your real word examples of developmental abuses against the Newtype theory are in turn justifying its necessity/existence to avoid just such an extinction scenario from occurring in the Universal Century since it is meant to be a bridge for communication and understanding between people.

           Ones that are largely self-dependent and self-reliant on their own resources and effort, if we look at the one of the very best examples of a Sides prosperity the Side 3 would be the one right up there, Sweet-Water from Char’s Counterattack was a pointed example of the Federations mismanagement of space as well. Palau is a mining/industrial colony acting as a secret base for Neo-Zeon, which means that by default it still has to function as a part of the Federation. That in turn suggests that those finite resources are going to the Federations benefit rather then those of the colony itself, which by and large shouldn’t be such a problem for the Sides since they are self-sustaining bio-spheres. More then likely, Neo-Zeon received the support of the people and the sympathies of the governor there BECAUSE of the squaller they currently live in, as is often the case with many insurgent/revolutionary movements who hope to survive. As for the weapons (*cough* supplied by the Federation *cough) unless they get full political control they aren’t exactly in a position to change policy decisions, and the whatever funds the ornate office took to redesign I don’t imagine it would be have alleviated the systemic problems of colonies like Palau, I believe it was meant to be more of a symbol to rally peoples hopes, much like that Cross was before as it is with both Full Frontal, Mineva, etc since hope is itself a very precious commodity and Marida points out. But no, I actually agree with you to a degree about Neo-Zeon as it currently is does not seem to be a viable engine for the growth of humanity. And that once again is an affirmation in regards to the Newtype Theory, that it could bridge the gap between individuals and elevate people together because more then just a political shift it would represent a tremendous cultural shift in human thinking as a whole. Also isn’t that criticism of current individuals who do display Newtype abilities more of a point about their squandered potential more then anything else? The connection two genuine Newtypes who were able to put aside their differences was demonstrated briefly b/t Amuro and Lala, allowing us a glimpse into its possibilities but also the tragedy of its loss after her death. Their ability to connect with others is constantly hampered, used, and manipulated, as weapons or some other equally misbegotten purpose. Point taken, as arduous as it often is Londo Bell was a big step up from its predecessor the Titans who were in turn an example of how some of those changes within the Federation haven’t been necessarily to the good, though another point can be made that Zeon hasn’t exactly been given much leeway to change after getting crushed so many times consecutively. I could very well have seen progress being made had Char actually managed to succeed during the Second Neo-Zeon War.

           All true, one has to be careful or else those changes can very well detract into something worse, but as volatile as change may often be at least there is some comfort in knowing ones situation is simply inevitable and that despite being able to stave it off for a time if nothing happens that alters the present circumstances then stagnation WILL engulf me, in terms of ones personal finance and a society as a whole. If ones safe-place were to collapse as such anyways, wouldn’t you rather do it on your own terms and at least a chance possibly make things different? Obviously the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward were severe mistakes that proved detrimental to China, but in turn it also lead to the realization in the need for reform which saw the subsequent boom in economic growth for the PRC now, so we cannot simplify all revolutions and their consequences based on their immediate result, other examples could include the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon. If those revolutions and changes are built upon, if they aren’t dragged back down into obscurity like Zeon Deikum was by the Zabi’s then yes, actually I do. I don’t know, likely there always are alternatives but it often seems like it takes something as shocking, something as on grand a scale, and sometimes as horrible, in order to make people see the necessity of change at times.

           Rights are a conceptualization, ultimately there is no all-encompassing authority or code that determines who has what right, its often simply a matter of what people can and will do (notice the distinction) but I at least credit Zeon for trying too in an otherwise uncertain and often bleak looking continuance that robbed the promise of the first Federation Prime Minister at the dawn of the Universal Century. And I believe originally Zeon Daikum did not respond overtly too the Federations policy which should have left the door open for negotiation in my view, but once again I’m not going to defend the actions of the Principality during the One Year War under the Zabis. And in the aftermath of every war the Federation failed to follow-up with an aftermath strategy that could have addressed their legitimate grievances, while Zeon failed to ever win the war the Federation in turn failed to win the peace, I will make a point to the fact that the first post One-Year-War conflict was the Gryps after all. Maybe, and maybe if the Federation put more into development and political reform in regards to their policy to the Sides that in turn may have taken out any support amongst the spacenoids for Zeon (*cough* or stopped giving them weapons to use as scapegoats *cough*), its a vicious cycle to be sure. Once again though I will concede that point that both sides have become a part of the overall problem now, but I’m still of the opinion that their original beliefs especially concerning the Newtypes holds a lot of promise for me. As I extrapolated before, it likely is because they are living in poverty that they would advocate for those un-democratic forces of change, and Kaiser Reinhard von Lohengram anyone? Once again, conceding your point, though once again I will point out their effect is rather limited now and that overall control i.e the overall fate of humanity is in the hands of the Federation now, while perhaps more subtle in your view, is also nonetheless the more prevalent force in the Univeral Century.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker

           Again Char’s passion is undeniable his mastery of science though is shitty, he ought to stick to what he knows and not meddle so grandly in Earth’s ecosystem due to his ignorance about the durability of life.

           To write off Somalia would be wrong, the absence of government is pretty much what some people actually want. If the Federation were gone and Zeon had its way the Balkanization of humanity would occur there is no reason to believe otherwise since not all Spacenoids want to be chummy with Zeon, the people on the moon have an agenda of their own, regardless of the “faults” of the Federation it provides stability and a decent standard of living. To assert that some how prosperity exists in spite of government is a misguided notion as government can exert an enormous amount of influence on economy, the absence of any government interference in the Somolia example proves this, which is why you should not discount it out of hand because it doesn’t fit.

           The stability of the Federation allows for standards in currency policy and taxation. Stability allows for people to conduct business in a safe environment, looking at the economic systems of most countries good economics and stable government pretty much go hand in hand.

           Zeon could have changed as armed struggle netted them nothing but more bad press and everyone a whole lot more dead. To say that Palau has been mismanaged by the Feddies is laughable if the Governor is so ostentatious about his support of Zeon the Feddies do not have any real control there. There is no Feddie occupation force there and Palau is pretty much under de facto Zeke control as the Feddie representatives are no where to be seen. Given the Zeke’s freedom of movement and how Full Frontal and Dilandu’s love nest had grass if they are in control why don’t they pour money into agriculture and urban renewal? Why waste it on a palace that was built rather recently to house Full Frontal when he came to Palau? You can’t seriously mean to blame the Federation for the sad state of Palau when the head honcho is pro-Zeon and the population is made of Zekes. There isn’t a Feddie in sight so what is stopping them from using their money better? How can the Feddies be faulted for the unwillingness of the Zekes to till soil and grow stuff?

           As I recall Anaheim has been independent from the Feddies since the beginning the background material states as much that they are a Zaibatsu that is selling to both sides and both sides have money. The Feddies aren’t handing the Zekes weapons, I have yet to see it all we have is Anaheim’s profit motive and Audery’s accusations. No sane government is going to fund a hostile group unless there was another target for said hostile group to attack. It makes no sense to arm the Zekes, and as such the accusation that is is some how true smacks of some idiot conspiracy theory meant for ignorant minds. It is akin to saying Israel is funding Hamas to undermine Palestinian independence, it is not far fetched it is simply stupid. For Audery and the Zekes to be right then the Feddies simply gave Gato the GP-02, that the Feddies gave Char his Sazabi, it wasn’t so it still isn’t so.

           If the Federation fails to win the peace I bet part of the problem is that military expenditures took money away from any development plans that would have been possible, the other option would be to print money but that would mean hyperinflation. The last time the US tried to fight a war and have social legislation it led to stagflation, you cannot have guns and butter as economists would say every time the Zekes start a war the Feddies have to buy guns to win, so the do not have butter to set things right. It’s the same with India they have a hostile neighbor they have gone to war plenty of times with said neighbor even now they suffer from attacks, so is it any real wonder that India has a powerful military and the bomb while many are still poor? With all the talk of fiscal responsibility how can you really fault the Feddies for not having that much money to do new things when it is always the Feddies footing the bill for weapons and reconstruction after the Zekes start shooting?

           The promise of the Newtype ubermensch is an thoroughly empty one it is not the Feddies who made it fail, it is because Zeon Daikum and Char underestimate the power of human folly and of individual wills that ran counter to their own.

           As for economic sanctions they have yet to topple anyone and even if there are sanctions nothing short of a long term naval blockade will achieve anything as smuggling and illicit trade can make up the difference.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           Eh, its anime, not trying to run behind it but it often does and makes things work in spite of real-world logic/considerations that would typically prevent it, I’m certainly no expert on these things and can only comment on what I’ve observed thus far, so I cut him some slack when it comes to this type of thing since he is technically living within the context of the Universal Century.

           I’m not exactly disagreeing with you on that notion here Crusader, I was mostly focusing on comparing government systems, but if you want to include broader ramifications to Zeon’s thinking then we can do that. Certainly I’m not going to say there wouldn’t be broad disagreements between the Sides in any post CCA-successful aftermath, but as the only remaining legitimate authorities they’ll have to deal with the wider ramifications (like the surge of refugees from Earth) of restructuring as a whole which will take precedent over political rivalries and foster a larger interdependence amongst the Sides, or as far as I can reason Char’s thinking on the matter. Once again, not saying you’re necessarily wrong as to what benefits the Federation can provide, but sometimes it takes more then that, like proper communication and presence in a peoples lives, as has not always been the case with the Spacenoids. And again, not disagreeing with you, it still depends how and to what capacity a government gets involved however, and I don’t necessarily agree with that as there have been positive examples of regions making tremendous progress in spite of a lack or weak central government just as there are negatives such as Somalia, which even it has good examples of such as Puntland and Somaliland, others include South Sudan, the former Boer Republics, Kurdishtan in Iraq and likely many other real world examples that escape me at the moment.

           Repeating my previous comment, that all depends on how involved and proactive they are, these days you can find a lot of criticisms of just how accurate this notion is with the recent problems of say, the European Union for example.

           A lot of truth is there, I admit, much of the fault lies with Zeon for its predicament and stubbornness, though I do question the availability and access of other, effective, options going back once again to the question of political say amongst spacenoids within the Federation.

           I’m fairly certain the Governor isn’t going to show off his A Baoa Qu office to the rest of the Federation Crusader. <_< And my understanding of many of the Spacenoid complaints about the Federations style of government was that they only ever made demands in terms for things like resources of the colonies while making no substantial contribution to their development or engaging to involve themselves in a positive manner and simply dictate policy from their grounded offices on Earth, not saying that's 100% accurate, but that's how I'm perceiving their beliefs in that regard and Palu could be a very good example of that, especially considering its purpose is a mining colony there doesn't seem much of a destination for export besides the Federation. I'm making a distinction here between the relationship of an insurgent/resistance movement in regards to a sympathetic local population and government, they'll house and provide for the movement but at the same time they also have to maintain facade as a Federation colony in order to be effective, which usually means functioning as close to how they've normally been. Your pushing this as if the conditions here have only been recent when by all indications the presence of that church and that cross indicate that a result of the systemic policy problems between the relationship of the Federation and the spacenoids since perhaps the first mass migration into space and long before Zeon even came into existence. Like Marida points out, hope is a very precious commodity in and of itself here, that it was replicated as a room in A Baoa Qu is likely meant more towards symbolism as Full Frontal points out that it isn't to his style but he has to make concessions as a political figure, and as I said before I don't imagine that the funds for this more then likely exception would have addressed some of the more real problems involved, like how politicians will pack pork/benefits into budgets, and though its often blamed and looked down upon its overall total is more then likely not going to a be a definitive factor to any fiscal problems the state is having. All said and done, I make this assertion based on the fact that by de-jure Palu is still a part of the Federation, and though that may seem insignificant it does, even realistically, carry severe weight that can disenfranchise people and as often the case lead to their support of insurgents/resistance movements. Overall everything just makes more sense in answering your previous question if I think of it like that.

           Oh I’m not going to suddenly absolve Anaheim and what they’ve done by any means, though to Zeon’s credit they at least haven’t let Anaheim manipulate them politically whereas the presence of their representative on the ECOAS mission suggests otherwise for the Federation (one of those complaints about democracy you often hear about) Audrey’s a pretty convincing gal who more at least when it comes to political matters seems more honest then not and would be in the position to know if anyone is, and its not as though she had much motive to divulge this to Riddhe in the first place since she more then likely wouldn’t expect any help, even beyond the weapons there was also the assertion she made about the arrival of this “professional” coming from Earth HQ to interrogate her as a simple means on their part to silence her and cover-up the truth. There is another target Crusader, one confined too and used on for their benefit against the Spacenoids since by and large the Sleeves operations seem largely confined to space. Well since this didn’t occur on the back of someone’s blog but in the actual series I’m going to give it a little more consideration then that. Depends on what their overall objective is, it’s not in Israel’s strategic interest to keep Palestine they only use the occupation as part of a larger political game, the Federation and their control over space on the other hand is a consideration with different dimensions and objectives. Oh, Gato was part of a different leadership group and much earlier when the Zeon movements still had significant enough resources to be a threat so I doubt that, Full Frontal and Sazabi on the other hand…

           No, your right that Zeon’s aggression is a major factor involved, but lets keep in mind again that the very first post One-Year-War conflict WAS Gryps, so starting off on the wrong foot already, while also being unable to build on the coalition formed during the AEUG which to my thinking could have alleviated much of the military pressure needed to maintain the peace, you know, hearts and minds and all that, and could have served that double purpose of both fostering political reconciliation and greater security. Not saying it’s totally their fault, it isn’t, but there is blame to go around here on this issue.

           Close-minded, Greedy, Gravity held-down Earthie politicians, to their thinking actually :p But I’m not going to let you get away with that entirely in regards to the Federation, especially considering their treatment of Amuro, a serious prejudice does exist within the establishment against Newtypes and Spacenoids.

           We’ve yet to have as you put it, tin cans with monkey’s shoved into them, as you put it, so the effects can vary in comparison to their functions with countries on Earth, and I’m only suggesting that the effects on the average Zeon livelihood could have provided the necessary political boost the Zabis needed. Though Like I’ve said before, not excusing the Zabi’s on this one here, a lot of this was driven based on their own egos as is often the folly of dictators.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker
           Palau hasn’t been inspected and doesn’t seem to be under the microscope it seems to me at least the Feddies don’t notice them because they have yet to cause trouble. De jure doesn’t mean much Taiwan claims de jure rule over mainland China and vice versa, Argentina claims de jure rule of the Falklands but that nets them nothing. I find it hard to believe that professed loyalty to the Feddies and some taxes has really done all that to the Zekes of Palau. Assuming the tax rate is the same for most colonies Palau seems to be an exception. Still considering how dilapidated the Forbidden City is maintaining a palace costs loads of money that Full Frontal and Dilandu’s love nest is so clean an shiny means they be ball’n with bales of money to keep it that way.

           Also 0083 takes place before Zeta Gundam so technically yeah the Zekes did start shit first and because they succeeded in the colony drop and taking out 2/3s of a major Feddie Fleet the Titans were born so that it would not happen again.

           As for Alberto it seems to me at least there are three forces at work for the Feddie side, Anahiem, Londo Bell, and ECOAS. ECOAS seems to be nominally working with Anaheim that Mackle disagrees and does his own thing suggests as much. The friction between Londo Bell and ECOAS is pretty much a regular vs Spec Ops deal they can work together they just have trouble liking one another. Londo Bell sees ECOAS as pushy, ECOAS sees Londo Bell as less than professional. However all three have banded together in an alliance of convenience to get the box. Supposedly some of the higher ups in Anaheim were locking horns with the Vist foundation, because the Vist Foundation offered up the Box to the Zekes the Feddies had to respond and take whatever help they could get since Anaheim already had people inside the foundation.

           Again I do not see Anaheim calling all the shots only that Mackle is glad he got something despite the sensitive nature of the situation. All got the reinforcements they wanted Alberto pretends that he got all he wanted, Londo Bell’s captain keeps his mouth shut about how low an opinion he has of the second ECOAS team and ECOAS in general. Mackle has his eyes on the prize and like a pro will make do with what he has.

           It shows how the Feddies have adapted to the situation they can’t go public but even when trying to keep a low profile they use other methods instead of just using a new Titans.

           Also IIRC there was an increase in colony building after the war to help lessen the burden of over population, it’s not a big concession but it was still a concession and it must have cost a whole lot. That is no small feat for a Federation that is still trying to recover from the damage the war and all the colony drops. That Palau has been left to their own devices suggests at the very least Feddie presence and Feddie surveillance have been scaled back and that it is not a bigger brother Orwellian society.

           Here’s the thing about pork though, it is a waste for most but it is a god send for some. West Virginia is pretty poor overall hence why Byrd was so loved for pushing pork their way. It evens out in the end as everyone gets pork sooner or later. It’s going to happen simply because every voting block wants it and every politician needs votes. That being said some pork I do like, anything to increase F-22 and F-35 numbers I am for even if none of those jobs are going to be in my state.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           A colony still has to produce and operate though, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the colony/community being there in the first place. I knew you were going to say that but I was just making a point about there being different exceptions, if we’re looking for more current and parallel examples we can go back to many insurgencies in both Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan for a more comparative assessment. Missing the intention here, large industrial/mining colony exports would likely make up most of the costs with little indication of proper refurbishment on the part of the Federation for their efforts, like say actually imperialist policies in regards to their colonies on Earth back then, at least in terms of what I’m extrapolating here. Comparing it to the Forbidden City is a bit extreme, but I’ll just end it on you know, hope is a precious commodity and all that, for the last time.

           Gah, I forgot about what order in the sequence that crazy Delaz came in… well he was a follower of Gihren Zabi so what can I say, other then maybe not succumbing to broad based reactionism (as many governments seem to be doing these days with terror attacks) which did do quite a bit to disenfranchise and revitalize support for the Zeon movement as Delaz had hoped.

           Good analysis of the situation with the Federation forces Crusader and the various forces at work, part of which I hope will convey my own sentiment that I in no way am blaming everyone within the Federation such as the members of Londo Bell or anything like that for a lot of the problems we’ve discussed. And I’m not saying Anaheim does call all the shots either, just that they wield a lot of undue influence here. Overall a lot of various political elements are still involved here though, which hasn’t exactly discredited Audrey’s assertions despite uneasy attempts at cohesion.

           Possibly, though it seems to be unclear whose overpopulation we’re talking about, as the first wave of space migration dealt with the one on Earth after all. Its not as if they can simply resettle the areas they lost during the war either considering they’re kind of either under the sea or a wasteland. But either way I’ll take your point on that score, though I think I will suggest that it is in part precisely because of Federation non-involvement beyond what they may likely demand of Palu that is the problem here as often seems to be the case with disenfranchised local populations in history who turn to supporting insurgent/resistance movements where development and distribution of resources isn’t also towards the benefit of the natives, I’m guessing anyway.

       • KrimzonStriker
         Posted November 12, 2010 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

         Forgot to add this bit about the pork, but it often does seem to be a VERY small some. A lot of those jobs and contracts, like weapons, are so overly priced it makes me laugh and then vomit at times, for far fewer jobs created then what could be put into more constructive attributes for its value like infrastructure. Second, I question the strategic value of things like the F-22 and F-34 in today’s low-tech insurgency based combat environment and the unlikelihood of a major conventional war, which they would excel at, arising, much like what happened with armament buildups during the Cold War where it was never put into use because ultimately they were irrelevant in the face of nuclear weapons. So yeah, Eisenhower was right :p

         Reply
         • Crusader
           Posted November 15, 2010 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

           You know the last time they were certain conventional war had died out Russia and Georgia went at it, hell India and Pakistan have already gone at it more than once. Just because the US is fighting an insurgency does not rule out the possibility of a conventional war there are still plenty of flash points, and besides in the case of the F-35 at least it’s also for our partners as well.

           Even during the Cold War there were plenty of times when it nearly went hot anyways. Besides that military industrial complex that makes you vomit gave you the internet and GPS. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. They spoke plenty of the end of conventional warfare after the nuclear age but we have had plenty of conventional conflicts since then. People also once said that war was unlikely before 1914 since all the people in charge in Europe were related, so much for that yeah?

     • Crusader
       Posted November 11, 2010 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

       Not sure if Vist was doing thinking but in the end he decided to not give up the box.

       Reply
       • ectholion
         Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:35 am | Permalink

         @KrimzonStriker
         wait a minute… did you say that by causeing a nuclear winter char would save the earth from slow a slow death… wow so you think that causing mass extinction of all plants animals, and most microorganisms execpt thermophiles and this will save the earth??? um i think you are alittle confused… Char’s logic to put it lightly was COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!! which is why at the end of chars counter attack even the zekes were trying to stop axis from hitting earth with amuro. if your not protecting life on earth then what are you protecting? oh and as for the planet recovering what do you think would take longer the emergance of life from bacteria or reforestation by people leaving earth. heres a hint one would take millions of years and its not the latter…

         Reply
         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:25 am | Permalink

           Consider this, Earth and overall life on earth has been through and survived an ice age before, what is the greatest detriment is how much humanity has upset the ecological balance to recover itself through the constant extraction of its resources. That is the likely logic that Char is following here, the ability for life on earth to restore and recover itself. I always chalked up the willingness of the Neo-Zeon soldiers at the end as part of the response/potential found within the Newtype theory to help resonate ones feelings across and to unite peoples understanding. I also certainly wouldn’t rule out possible terra-forming of the Earth to its former state once the political situation of the Sides had been stabilized in that scenario, at least within both Zeon Deikum’s perspective on the matter the self-sustaining ability of the colonies and emergence of the Newtype thinking within humanity would have allowed them the time to do so. Now let me be clear, I’m just making a point within the logic of the overall argument, I’m personally not as much of an advocate for such an extreme measure, but I can see the appeal in any event.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker

           Char’s plans only sound good in theory but the man was not a scientist and his ignorance shows, just because Earth has gone through natural mass extinctions does not mean it will survive nuclear winter. Even if life goes on it might take shape in a form in an environment inhospitable to man. There are problems with living solely in space but none are touched upon, It would be hard as hell to take the environment we have now with us to space, the complexities of our environment are such that there is no way for an artificial environment to self correct, would work in Gundam possibly but the tech does not exists and there is no real substitute for a planet. The implications of a genetic founder effect will also come into play as the gene pool of a colony will be much more limited than it would be on a planet simply due to spacial constraints.

           Arguments that there is no point at which life cannot renew itself is pretty much the same argument some circles make about global climate change and during the Guld Oil spill. Even if the absence of man would be of benefit to the planet it would not be in the interest of humans to do so simply because their survival as a species will be much more fragile and the physiological havoc that low gravity will have on our physiology will cause problems later. Char’s plans only works if the tech is there otherwise it is simply monstrous and stupid since you cannot have the same amount of biodiversity to prevent an Irish Potato Famine nor would you have enough to recover in a shorter amount of time.

           The hazards outweigh the benefits and considering how Gundam tech is marginally better than ours and only possible through miracle minovsky unobtainium the scientific logic behind it is weak. Moreover this idiot idea that if we call could communicate that we’d all magically get along the internet has been around for some time social networking is such that hardly much is private anymore and yet the old problems persist as attractive as it is in theory it is just that theory that turns to shit when reality hits. In terms of having humans in space Macross does a better job of showing just how tough it can be to maintain an artificial environment.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           Let’s assume that Char’s not totally stupid and his projection on the Earth’s overall survival is correct for conveniences sake, a possible environmental development that would be hostile to humans under both Zeon Deikum and Char’s reasoning that would be all to the good in their view of preserving it from future pollution/contamination. By and large most of those problems seem to be addressed already, and if they aren’t or don’t then by Char/Zeon Deikum’s logic humanity as a whole will grow, evolve, and adapt to suit their conditions as proposed under the Newtype theory. Once again, largely seems to have been dealt with in this universe, and any corrections needed to be made to do environment would likely be done by the human residences as seems to already be the case with the Sides, but just in case you’re wondering Crusader I don’t have grand visions of becoming a Newtype in real life :p Which in turn means a rapid expansion of colonies as a whole to accommodate the eventual refugees from earth and constant contact/exchange between the various Sides to ensure overall genetic diversity, not completely implausible to my knowledge, the Migrant Fleet from Mass Effect manages to make it work with far less space and resources, so the Sides theoretically wouldn’t have to deal with the same rigid policy constraints over there because of it.

           I actually agree with those circles to an extent, at least in the sense that humanity is causing partially irreparable damage to the environment that has the potential to get worse. The whole ideological thinking behind both Char and Zeon Deikum revolves around mans evolution, biologically and mentally in order to fully be able to live in space, as we’re already on the scale of replicating environments within Sides and fully capable of cloning as is I haven’t seen anything within the UC that deters from the notion that they currently do have the technology to do just that.

           Eh, I can only work with what I’m given Crusader, I’m not the directors or the writers so you’ll have to take it up with them if you want to seriously question the scientific aspect of it all :S Oh c’mon, its a much more intimate connection then that, capable of conveying ones feelings and a sense of understanding and its been demonstrated as such throughout the course of the UC, in comparison one could and will argue that social networking has devolved communications to simple pages of data and obscure identities now. Also, its good thing we have a bit more leeway since in fact this is not reality despite how often closely it resembles it. But yeah, you have a point about Macross, which I give them even more credit for having been able to make it work nonetheless.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker
           You cannot engineer evolution by packing a bunch of monkeys in a new environment to make sure they “adapt” we have lost plenty of species to environmental change packing in humanity off to space would not mean that they would simply adapt, hell it is more likely that they won’t and will all die. Unless you manipulate the gene pool with selective breeding you will not get the traits you want because the base line genome will win out more often than not. A simple fruit fly experiment usually taught in biology class shows this. If you do embark on selective breeding you can kiss democracy good bye because not everyone will be equal any more, love will happen less and that would be a sorry existence and hardly worth a newtype.

           Putting fish on dry land will not create a species of land loving fish, that isn’t how it works but that is how Zekes and Gundam think it works. Random mutations only get passed on if it is a favorable one that gives them a breeding advantage, certainly with some newtypes it seems that way, despite the shallowness of their relationships. But newtypes usually did not breed like rabbits and hence if it gets them killed more often than not then newtypes will not persist. That some newtypes have such hideous personalties tells me that being a newtype does not let one get all the guys or all the girls.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           To be fair, Zeon Daikum had a lot of precedent to work with already in that regard with current space settlement as is, so I rather think we’ve got adaptation to living in a new environment covered by now, and as unbelievable as it may seem his NewType Theory has come to pass. With enough Sides to house most of the populations the huge existing population sizes and inter-exchange between them should suffice in keeping the gene-pool diverse enough to avoid measures like selective breeding. As I’ve said before, I’m only working with what I have on this Crusader.

           To be fair, fish or at least sea-creatures DID migrate to settle on land, and humanity is already migrating into space this time around. Err, if you say so on their relationships I guess? Theoretically the Newtype Theory should be able to meet the requirements you described, and to be fair most Newtypes get sent off to get killed in war so it hasn’t given them much room to develop yet. Oh not saying we aren’t going to have very distinct differences in terms of personalities still, but the overall benefits that were stated are more of an envisioned ‘when it occurs or succeeds” type of thing on a society level, there’s likely still going to be a long way to go and a lot of things to work out as often is the case with new evolutions before it’s ever realized fully.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker

           They did not migrate to land overnight they suspected fish that made the leap developed the means to get to land while still in the water not after they got stuck there. Even then it wasn’t a quick process so the theory goes, we had amphibians later that still needed the water to breed, the dynamic shift did not occur until the embryonic egg that allowed reptiles to go further afield. In much the same way humans will need an earth like gravity to maintain musculature or risk atrophy and bone degradation.

           Let’s be honest about Amuro he never tried and he was never the charismatic one and when Char became a politician he did become rather stupid. to run a smear campaign against Amuro would have been easy given his bury the Gundam in the sand mistake. Gundam has a permanent bias against politicians they will always be the whipping boys. Most of the newtypes had personality flaws even the ones I liked wouldn’t be the kind of people I would vote for. For instance I would not vote for Kamille, Char, Quess, and others like them. Haman would be worth considering though I confess it would not be on the merits of her policy platform.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           … Humanity built space-ships so could we consider that part of the transition? :p We’ve always had a rather rapid acceleration in our development? And Sides are for the most part representative of an Earth-like environment, even varying degrees of gravity as well. Working with what we have here Crusader. *sweatdrop*

           Yep, he was always an odd one of the bunch,( kind of ironic considering how generally rational he was lulz). True, though I might make a few exceptions with my vote given how utterly tired I am of the same old tired, two-faced politicians we do have, both in reality and in the series. At the same time, the political climate has got to calm down in order to be conducive to for proper Newtype development, which is probably what both Char and his father were trying to accomplish in their own ways.

   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

     I haven’t forgotten but there hasn’t been a repeat of the TItans yet, while the Zekes have dropped numerous colonies since they first started. At least the Feddies decided to change tactics and use Spec Ops teams to achieve the same ends and made it so that they could not act independently nor would they operate in large numbers. Thus there was doctrinal reform in the wake of the Titans and fine tuning after CCA.

     There are some respectable Zekes but on the whole Zekes do some dastardly things for their glorious cause. As great as Norris was Cima is still my favorite Zeke though Audrey is gunning for that spot. So far the Zekes have tried armed struggle numerous times to get what they want every time they do such vile things at other spacenoids no longer sympathize, and yet Zekes are still surprised that other spacenoids don’t flock to them. They don’t try anything else instead they insist upon more war and more destruction each time thinking that victory is theirs for the taking.

     Reply
     • KrimzonStriker
       Posted November 11, 2010 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

       Well, lets look at it from the perspective within the Federation itself to see how hard and how difficult it is to effect any type of real reform that could placate Zeon’s many legitimate grievances. Amuro never made it past lieutenant despite his many accomplishments that saved the Federation simply because he was a newtype/spacenoid being one example that comes to mind. Even those who are lauded supporters/followers continue to exclaim their frustration at the corruption, ineptitude, and narrow-mindedness of the system and their leaders, the conversation between Riddhe and Audrey being one of the latest examples.

       Reply
       • Crusader
         Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

         Those without worry often rail at the every system that provides so generously for them, besides Gundam has always railed at democracy, not surprising that in Japan their democracy is slow to change. However such is not true of every republic, the winds of change can come suddenly and unexpectedly. That the rank and file rail at the bureaucratic system is nothing new, hell I do it all the time. However that being said it is easy to scape goat your government for all the ills of society, however every democracy is stymied by inefficiency because there is an emphasis on fairness and transparency than speed.

         In Gundam the enlightened person is the hero not the grassroots and it will only be through the latter that changes will come. Even if the Zekes have grievances what gave them the right to start an imperial war after declaring independence? Would you listen to a group that repeatedly demands things through the use of force? The Zekes are a minority within the Spacenoids not all agree with them and to give them all that they ask for is vindicating their use of force as a legitimate means to change things. Moreover the corruption is always moaned about but never shown it is a fixture that is there to make the Zekes look less like idiots. So long as the standard of living in the Federation is pretty high vis-a-vis Zeon is the Federation really that vile all things considered? No democracy is perfect, but if varying groups are to be brought to the table you have to deal with paucity and slowness it takes time to build a majority and it is hard to build one. Gundam prefers to prattle about righteousness but at the end of the day in every democracy morals and values are not universal the case for reform has to have enough traction with the majority of people. If every group were to have their own little country if they could not function as a nation what expectation do you have that they will have peaceful borders?

         The majority can be narrow-minded, the majority of people can be inept, but that is the way humans are. Zeke paradise as rosy as it would be for them would be a nightmare for the rest. Full Frontal and his faction might have all the luxury they would want but the rest would end up as poor as Palau.

         Even if the system is broken in your view doesn’t mean that it should be cast down. To install an enlightened few might mitigate things but things will degenerate just the same given time.

         While Amuro and the rest can rail at the system as troops it is not their place to decide policy. If they retired and went else where sure, why they have not tried to run for office to change things is beyond me, at least Amuro and Bright had the fame to get there, Riddhe had the pedigree to get there, Audrery has the savvy to give her a fighting chance. All have the means to make changes but they have not left the EFSF and thus should not be allowed to force changes if democracy is the system they wish to uphold, even if they are an enlightened junta it sets a bad precedent, much like how Sulla marched on Rome saved the Republic in the short term but doomed it in the long run.

         Reply
         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 11, 2010 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

           Well, if we often look at how revolutions and movements come to a point in fruition that they can have an actual effect its often with the wind of very real problems, the French Revolution, the Communist Revolutions, the rise of Facisim, and the various colonial independence movements. Everything has its different examples and exceptions, I don’t disagree with that (I’m not against democracy per-say myself here, just putting on my advocacy hat right now) Oh I think most if not all people would agree with you on that, myself included. Not saying your wrong about people’s complaints or that that’s not often the case, but I have to express the cynicism of the disenfranchised spacenoids that democracy ensures fairness and transparency in exchange for speed, often you’ll face deadlocks, corruption, narrow-minded political agendas, ineptitude on part of both the politicians and the people, etc. etc. both in reality and in the Universal Century.

           Just as often it takes a hero in order to rally the people to do just that however. No war is technically justifiable, though I often wonder if the Federations arbitrary policy of blockade and sanctions could have had enough of an immediate detrimental effect on Zeon that would provide the Zabis the lift they needed to go to war. Its stupid in my opinion not to listen at all, especially when they first made their demands without the guns, but even after I would have liked to know what needed to be corrected whatever actions on my own part may have contributed to the situation as well, since I rather think these problems were in the making decades before the One-Year War began. Minority certainly within earth, but amongst just the spacenoids I rather often think their influence was more pronounced then that, especially after witnessing Char’s rise and how the other Sides were reluctant to intercede. Uh, the corporate executive? Easily bribed officials Char used to obtain Axis? Various military commanders like Captain Isan Ryer? No promotion for savior Amuro? Well Hong Kong looked like crap, just to be fair, and can we really say the Sides standard of living was based on the Federation (or perhaps in spite of them) versus their own efforts? Just as easily you may never manage to build one as well, such is a frailty in consensus building with so many vying interests. No, but if such people, especially such a notable group of people, are to be a part of a country at all then their concerns should be listened too in such a system. If a nation cannot function what reason should there be to be part of such a country? And no, often times war is a major consequence of these sorts of things, not always mind you, unpleasant of course but in our limited fashion it often seems to be the only thing anyone ever understands, again not supporting it though.

           Now that’s a little wide in terms of your condemnation, there is more then just the political context to take into consideration if we look at the core philosophies involved like the Newtype theory then that general picture does in fact hold quite a bit of appeal too it for humanity as a whole.

           Oh I’m not going to claim that it can’t be and isn’t an erratic method as well, no systems perfect though that suggests no system can be entirely wrong either. As for the longevity of either system in comparison to one another, well I rather think that varies, as does anything else, and there are plenty of good arguments for both sides on that count I think.

           To much of the soldier mentality in them perhaps which might explain Bright more then anything, also Char often made pointed remarks too Amuro about just that, though credit where credit is due Amuro was always regarded with suspicion within the Federation establishment, giving credence to some of the spacenoid complaints about their political involvement. I mean, what office would Amuro run for exactly now that I think about it? Side Governors are selected after all and there isn’t likely any spacenoid representation that he can get elected too… Is he even eligible to vote anywhere? Riddhe’s lived in a rather boxed view of the Federation up until now as we just saw, but yes, in fact I’m banking on both him and Audrey to perhaps finally make a real difference in the systemic problems of the Universal Century. To be fair its not as if all separatism hasn’t effected a wider change, the United States comes to mind. In regards to Rome I think I’ll go back to a previous comment I made on ghostligtening’s blog, about what in the end left a greater impact/legacy via the Roman Republic versus the Roman Empire, to once again draw a conclusion that things are not quite as clear cut as they seem.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

           @KrimzonStriker
           Again sanctions have yet to topple any government, unless the Feddie blockade was just that good smuggling and illicit trade would have meant the Zekes would not me all that worse off.

           The notion that you need a “hero” to lead smacks of demagoguery, public opinion is mercurial you have to sell people an idea to the point they will never discard it. Zeon did not convince the rest of the Sides to side with him, and even after his death had there been a little more patience more might have listened, but instead they tried to force the issue and got the war they wanted.

           Even if the majority listens to the minority and decide to go against said minority is it fair for the minority to insist that the majority conform to their will to the point the minority takes up arms and starts demanding they have their way at gun point? You have to take lumps in democracy you will not always get your way, not every one will believe in the same things as you.

           Again stability promotes economic progress if there is no government there is no good economy going and not much of a standard of living. Stability has its merits and as much as you fear stagnation that you do not fear uncertainty more tells me you are lucky enough to not have to worry about a job or money. Regardless of how the Zeke has theoretical nobility based on pseudo-science the fact that they have persisted in waging wars longer than they should discredits them severely that will cast a shadow upon what little if any good they have done and all that they shall ever do. That they have not given up on armed conflict as a means to achieve their goals, when no one-else wants to see come to fruition by such means, means the Zekes ought to die for their insolence. Just because they meant well does not give them license to be vile and inconsiderate they deserve the national extinction that they have repeatedly tried to give others.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

           @Crusader

           Once again, not saying it would or did, just that it might have been adverse enough to provide the Zabis the political clout they needed to push the war, and as I mentioned before there are different dimensions to consider versus sanctions that have taken place on Earth.

           Yet often times in reality it is the case, you can’t really point to any major political movement without some type of figure-head for the most part, people just seem to have an easier time identifying with personalities then wide ranging ideology. I rather think you can hardly fault Zeon for that though, since it was precisely because of his death that there wasn’t enough time or patience on the part of the Zabi’s ambitions for his ideas to take hold naturally.

           Just as any leader must find ways to accommodate and cooperate with many other people so too sometimes do groups and majorities. Not saying that the actions taken were necessarily right, just understandable in the face of continued frustration, which to be fair is indicated to have been going on for close to a century now, somebody should have been listening by now don’t you think?

           And again, depends on how the government executes and acts, while at the same time it leaves the disenfranchised the possibility to form their own communities to make up for this lack of presence in their lives. Stability and change have their times and places is all I’m saying, and I wouldn’t be anywhere near as sure as that concerning my current situation, I lean more to it being a logical leap of fear that given how bad the situation is then if something doesn’t change I’m very afraid of what my life will be like in the future given the overall very bleak outlook. All points I’m conceding here in regards to the current Zeon, but I do see some possibility that can yet still be salvaged from their more positive basis that shouldn’t be ignored in finding a solution to end this cycle once and for all.

6. KrimzonStriker
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 11:59 am | Permalink

   Crusader, just a small reminder, but Zeon WAS originally a democracy. And I don’t know why you hold it against them so much for hating on ‘freedom’ when its simply a different interpretation of what freedom actually means. Kaiser Reinhard doesn’t get nearly as much gripes despite being exactly what you’re criticizing <_< And lets be honest here, putting aside individual Federation soldiers the main gripes with them are based on systemic problems within the government, and we REALLY shouldn't put it past them for doing something like this… again… and again, which in turn continually feeds this never-ending conflict.

   Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

     Who they stared is of no concern what they are now is what is most relevant. Reinhard wanted to rule justly but he did not hide behind cries fro freedom he was an enlightened despot and did not pretend that he was elected or derived rule directly from the masses.

     My views on the matter are best summed up by the words of General Sherman, “War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.” Time and time again the Zekes have started wars and for that they are to me an accursed people worthy of nothing but destruction, just because they want nice things does not mean they can take them from someone else or force every one to accept their desires. It is as Sherman said so long ago to of the South, “If they want eternal war, well and good; we accept the issue, and will dispossess them and put our friends in their place. I know thousands and millions of good people who at simple notice would come to North Alabama and accept the elegant houses and plantations there. If the people of Huntsville think different, let them persist in war three years longer, and then they will not be consulted. Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well. Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late.

     All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence.”

     To me the Zekes have the same attitude as those in the American South, such is their eagerness to resort to war to settle their grievances that they are loathsome and despicable. I don’t pity the Zeke any more than I would pity any terror group fighting for justice using reprehensible means for causes that they feel are just. I may understand where the Zekes are coming from but their methods are terrible and I disagree violently with their methods. If War is what the Zekes want then the Feddies should give them all they want.

     Reply
     • KrimzonStriker
       Posted November 11, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

       I rather think it does anyway, as it alleviates some of the past accusations prior to the Zabi family that they didn’t try more peaceful methods at first. There were plenty of cries for freedom I believe, freedom for the people if not by the people as Yang once commented. I rather think the same can indeed apply to the Zeon movement.

       How far back that goes in terms of responsibility is another question in my mind though. Of course I once again concede that many of the consequences that have befallen Zeon are of their own fault, but that once again does not absolve the larger systemic problems from which Zeon came as a result of. Another thing is that Sherman fought in the reverse for a society that needed to change whereas the South fought to protect the status quo. My question first and foremost is that once we are done with the wars, once Zeon is gone, then what? That has been the question that has yet to be answered after every conflict so far. There has to be a follow-up or we’re just planting the seeds for another conflict down the road as often is the case politically now with the current U.S South <_<

       Reply
       • ectholion
         Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:02 am | Permalink

         the spacenoids did have a movement for freedom called the AEUG and they won. zeon existed then and still clung to their warped dream of control of space, and in that great battle amazing things happened… Char wasnt a loli con, the great kamille defeated yazan , commanded bright slapped the shit out of many people, Fa burned with rage, Kotz died for being emo and dumb enough to cross yazan path. The titans were defeated and the spacenoids and the earth were both freed from opression. Alas it came at the cost of many great people yazan and his great team of zeke killers, four, and it took the bright slap which lead to ZZ gundam..

         Reply
         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:31 am | Permalink

           And then things went back to the status quo, the original problems were never addressed and the AEUG eventually split, never managing to manifest as a real political force, which led to the events of Char’s Counterattack. It was a good time, I agree, which makes the loss of its original promise rather tragic as a result

       • Crusader
         Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

         Even if there were cries for freedom they did not have the numbers to make an impression as they did in Side 3. That Daikum’s ideas made no impression elsewhere for ten years says plenty of how there was no majority willing to back him to that degree. Thus in the grand scheme of things Zeon was always in the minority in peace and most certainly in war.

         The world is unfair it has always been like this regardless of political system in place, so is it better as Cao Cao allegedly said that “it is better to wrong the world than let it wrong me?” Go back far enough and the blame will either rest with Adam and Eve or a successful mutation.

         As much as there is a myth around the Civil War about it being about changing the Southern slave based society it did not start out that way, the South seceded under the idea that the US was just a league of states that they could dissolve the Union, that individual states held more political power than the Federal Government. The South started the war to change things in their favor. Sherman wrecked them not for having slaves he was perfectly fine letting them keep them if it meant peace, but once the war started he gave them hell not for holding slaves but for being rebels and forcing a war instead of having the patience for a peaceable solution. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in slave states that remained loyal to the Union, it was a political ploy to ensure that the British and French public would make it impossible for France and Britain to enter the war on the side of the South. Freeing the slaves however would be due to legislation in those slave states that remained in the Union. The final abolition did not happen until after Union Victory was secured and the Southern political class was disenfranchised for being rebels, but then not for that long.

         It is pointless to wonder at how the Feddies would behave if Zeon was done for, having that snotty Zeke brat proved that the Zekes were teaching their children to hate the Federation and insist upon their manifest destiny. Generation after generation of Zeke will persist in war because the Feddies don’t have the will nor the means to wipe them all out for good. At this point there are no concessions that the Feddies could really make that would end the desire of all Zekes to fight and drop colonies. Hatred has taken over for the Zekes, passion has surpassed patience and wisdom.

         Reply
         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

           well, we have seen examples outside of Side 3 and allies to their cause during the One-Year-War and beyond. Things proceeded too fast especially after his death, and they proceeded in a way that sullied and destroyed the original promise in his ideas before they could take hold root and alienated a great number of people, to which I blame the Zabi’s for making the biggest contribution too this tragedy.

           No, but a degree it goes beyond simply that as a means with which people believed they were righting it instead, you know the lines from this episode, hope for improvement in their lives and all that. NOT saying the war(s) were right or correct however.

           I know it didn’t start out politically like that, I’m talking about background and systemic problems in regards to slavery prior to the Civil War though that were in place since the founding of the country. We can get into the nitty technicalities of how it all directly happened but issue of slavery was the backdrop they took place under. And I’m well aware of what Sherman was like personally, I was speaking more in regards to the greater changes that were brought forth in his contribution of the North’s victory. Once again you’re speaking of the poltical context while I’m referencing more to the cultural context of the time, like how both France and England had already outlawed and disapproved of slavery and the only remaining places that practiced it now were the United States and Brazil at the time, cultural changes once again.

           Now that is where I think you’re flat out wrong, as for one thing Zeon has been had long moments of absences before their return and we’ve seen no substantive policy changes so far in response to that. Second, I am under the genuine belief that Unicorn has provided a spark of optimism of finally ending this conflict between the Zeon colonist and the Federation once and for all and that by the end of it I will have both my observations and belief vindicated on this matter.

         • Crusader
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

           Supposedly Zeon reintegrates four years after Unicorn starts, but keep in mind there are Zekes elsewhere. As much as it would be great if the Zekes admitted that the war was started in error and perpetuated in pride, UC is still a cash cow for the milking. Audery might win most of them over but as always there will be those who cannot accept peace. Audery has a chance but I think Dilandu and his ilk will die before accepting any peace but their own. Also there will probably be a new crop of vile Zekes to destroy things even if Audery reaches a general peace with the Federation for her followers.

         • KrimzonStriker
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

           Which is what I’m basing most of my assumptions about Unicorn around, though you’ll note that I mentioned the Zeke colonist who are presently here and not say any of their past incarnations in the rest of the solar system like those on Mars. And you might be right about ANGELO (have to give him some representation here if only for the fact that he’s voiced by Tetsuya Kakihara :p) and some other elements involved having to be removed before peace can be finally realized, we’ll see how things go in any event, at least for now we know more fighting is going to take place before this whole thing is finally resolved. Eh, their past attempts to milk it involved new factions that arose as well, and this current animation took place in between major timelines, so if they do I find it more likely they’ll just use off-shots as they’ve done before that take place prior to any likely peace agreement between the Federation and Zeon that arises here.

         • ectholion
           Posted November 12, 2010 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

           lol crusader loving the Kuragehime influenced qoute!! “so is it better as Cao Cao allegedly said that “it is better to wrong the world than let it wrong me?” ” well said fellow feddie

7. SquareSphere
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

   I do find it kinda hilarious that Crusader is paraphrasing the God of all Gundam Grunts Patrick Norris, who just so happened to a Zeke…

   Gundam, hell all mecha needs more Patrick Norris’s.

   Reply
   • ectholion
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

     actually i would have to say orange is the most bad ass in mecha. watch this and you will agree. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCihVamPBuA

     Reply
     • SquareSphere
       Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:06 am | Permalink

       @ectholion
       Get your golden calf out the House of Patrick Norris! The fact that clip shows him getting mecha blown up AND he has cyber implants immediately disqualifies him

       Reply
       • ectholion
         Posted November 12, 2010 at 7:27 am | Permalink

         lol i have sinned!!!

         Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

     Norris Packard was of a different stripe like Cima though less wise, but far more agreeable as a worthy adversary. If only more Zekes were like him.

     Reply
8. DonKangolJones
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

   Boy, this is some first rate Zeke bashing if I’ve ever heard some. I did have to laugh hard at that “…pwned by a Kamille” comment.

   Reply
   • Crusader
     Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

     Glad you had fun and a good laugh, though I think Sunrise did well on the comedy front with Full Frontal’s hardo gei stalker-kun.

     Reply
9. rpd
   Posted November 11, 2010 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

   who do you call when you need some…. ?
   http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/9039/gundamunicorn0201.jpg

   Reply
   • rpd
     Posted November 12, 2010 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

     i was going for samurai pizza cats

     Reply
10. Marigold Ran
    Posted November 11, 2010 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    So, like, Zeon is NOD and the Federation is GDI?

    Reply
    • KrimzonStriker
      Posted November 11, 2010 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

      PEACE THROUGH POWER!!

      Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 11, 2010 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

      Well the Zekes are a NODdie bunch of monstrosities…

      Reply
11. vendredi
    Posted November 12, 2010 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Well, at least the Zekes still got fashion sense. Federation standard-issue wear certainly has been helped quite a bit by Unicorn’s lush production values but the Zekes are looking just faaabulous.

    Also, I’m not clear where the idea that Banagher “just learned how to pilot Unicorn” is coming from – I thought the whole purpose of his flashback in the chair with the high-tech equipment was to suggest that he has had some sort of exposure to the Unicorn project, that his father involved him much more than initially thought.

    Glad to see I’m not the only one who immediately thought of Dilandau and JAJUKA whenever Angelo appeared on-screen. Surprised at how well he really sort of just fits in as a fanatical follower. Actually, in general I was very surprised how likeable I find that most of the cast; there’s usually a couple characters in every Gundam series who just seem plain unlikeable, but there’s a lot less of that in Gundam. Commander Mackle in particular shows a really human side after the Palau briefing, talking about how much they owe Banagher. Another example is the Anaheim representative on the Argama – he’s a complete sleazeball, but hey, he’s a quick-witted sleazeball, doing things like uploading the specs for the Sinaju. In general most of the characters might be stock tropes, but they’re pulled off with some intelligence, at least relative to some other Gundam series where characters engage in activities that sometimes have you scratching your head and questioning their sanity.

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

      Well considering how close Full Frontal and Dilandu are it is no coincidence that they are over dressed with a point to impress…

      I think the high tech equipment was there to condition him for something kind of like in Bioshock and the phrase “would you kindly…”

      It seems as though Dilandu lives and JAJUKA will be ringing in our ears soon enough, all that is left is a fate alteration machine…

      Certainly on the non-Zeke side that intelligence and maturity are on the rise compared to other UC entries. Even if Albertos is a douche he does have is A game on with specs on hand and the ability to call for another team of ECOAS to help. Whether or not ECOAS’ fearsome reputation will make up for the lack of numbers only time will tell but if Mackle is any measure then we can expect great things from the Feddie commandos.

      Reply
12. Funk
    Posted November 12, 2010 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    What? No mention of the Delta Gundam? And ZZ Happened, just in a parallel universe.

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

      Delta Plus is for next time when it will be a most glorious episode. ZZ was a movie made to humiliate Haman, it was directed by Quattro Bajeena…

      Reply
      • Funk
        Posted November 13, 2010 at 10:00 am | Permalink

        Yes indeed. Seems like it, Char’s Counterattack was originally supposed to be an arc in ZZ, thankfully it became a movie.

        Reply
13. Iscariot
    Posted November 12, 2010 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Two questions.

    Why are Spacenoids just better? In addition to being psychic motherfuckers, for some reason, they’ve got better vision, better, reflexes, and, according to Gundamverse anyway, a better way for humanity to follow. That’s annoying. Shouldn’t they have terrible muscle atrophy?

    Second, why hasn’t Zeon infantry kit changed at all in the /decades/ of UC that have passed? It’s the same as in 0079….

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

      A lot of things should have happened to the Zeke physiology due to living in space but the folks in Gundam generally aren’t all that interested in actual space travel. They aren’t as technically detailed as Macross or as Start Trek. Only when it comes to mecha but otherwise human physiology and science aren’t accurately modeled. Besides they need to keep the uber-mensch theme going despite being a poor copy of Jerry back in 1920-1945.

      Unlike real war infantry is no longer the Queen of Battle and only in IGLOO 2 will you see combined arms of any sort.

      Reply
14. Zi Densetsu
    Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Ah, Zeons never change. My hate has learned to follow suite.

    Reply
    • Zi Densetsu
      Posted November 12, 2010 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      If only I could stop second guessing myself on what I want to call them.

      Where does the term “Zeke” come from? (Donate info for the UC deprived)

      Reply
      • Crusader
        Posted November 12, 2010 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

        IIRC Zeke was an English translation for the slang term the Feddies gave the people of Zeon. For me it has stuck, but it is not in the original Japanese per se.

        Reply
      • vendredi
        Posted November 13, 2010 at 1:20 am | Permalink

        “Zeke” was also the codename used by the U.S. Navy to refer to the Japanese Zero fighter plane during the World War II, so it’s a particularly resonant epithet given the imperialistic trappings of the Principality.

        Reply
15. d3v
    Posted November 12, 2010 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    The thing that always bugged me about UC politics is that, while they try to show the inherrent evils of both sides of the conflict, the immediate answer is always something about the kids being good and the adults being the evil that caused the mess in the first place. While most of the OVAs are able to work around that (often eschewing the whole thing about the kids), UC sticks so close to the TV series’ that it kinda hurts it. That said, Props to Mackie for actually coming off as a decent guy. Also, while I find Marida to be a sympathetic character, the problem is that she falls into the familiar trap of having a good Zeke character who’s blinded by the ideals and not aware of just how messed up the leadership is.

    Off course the entire ringer for this whole thing is the contents of Laplace’ Box which (based on the novel).

    SPOILER WARNING
    Show ▼

    Is supposedly the original draft of the UC constitution (or whatever you call it) which supposedly guarantees the colonies equal representation and the right to choose their own leaders.

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 13, 2010 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

      Quite why the Zekes would follow another Char rather than Audrey is quite strange though I chalk it up to Zekes being dumb.

      Show ▼

      I suspected as much since it’s just a bloody box and a black tablet floating around ain’t gonna change nothing unless it has something compelling written on it.
      Reply
      • KrimzonStriker
        Posted November 13, 2010 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

        They technically do both, but I generally chalk that up to the fact that Audrey is still very young, so Full Frontal likely serves as her steward and overall military commander within their hierarchy while she is there political head., that and just a general propensity to fighting and resisting as the solution to whatever their problems were.

        I had to laugh at the irony after I read the spoilers, now the question is whether this will have the chance to make its way to the surface and affect that necessary changes to rectify the Universal Century once and for all. Would go into more details but I have no idea how to enact the spoiler box here

        Reply
        • d3v
          Posted November 14, 2010 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

          Which brings up the fact that Full Frontal Show ▼

          was, as a cyber newtype, genetically modified to look and sound like Char. Meaning that someone in the zekes actually paid good money to make a new one.
          Reply
          • KrimzonStriker
            Posted November 14, 2010 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

            Spoilers man!!! Get rid/edit that out right now if you don’t know how to mark them!!

        • blind_dead_mcjones
          Posted November 14, 2010 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

          well considering that what happens after unicorn time line wise is F91, things more or less stay the same

          Reply
          • KrimzonStriker
            Posted November 15, 2010 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

            Does too change, you don’t see anymore Zeon Colonist wars now do you? Don’t bring up Mars, they’re almost an entirely separate entity after so many years in exile.

          • Crusader
            Posted November 15, 2010 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

            Indeed for Zekes are always stupid.

16. grss1982
    Posted November 13, 2010 at 4:46 am | Permalink

    “Kyun kyun watashi no kare wa…”

    LOL…Macross reference in a Gundam show?

    Reply
    • d3v
      Posted November 14, 2010 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

      Well, with how much the Gundam tropes were hammered in by this ep. seeing something like that which you could make a Macross reference to qas quite refreshing.

      Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 15, 2010 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

      Sadly there was a decided lack of Gorgeous Delicious DECLTCHA and good looking Meltrans with skills at piloting.

      Reply
17. KrimzonStriker
    Posted November 14, 2010 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Some things I wanted to mention separate to what we were discussing but kind of glossed over before Crusader, was that there does seem to be a divide within the current Neo-Zeon movement as was the case with your summary concerning the Federation task-force of Anaheim, ECOAS, and Londo Bell , with the most clear ones seeming to be between the Zabi followers of Mineva and the Char followers of Full Frontal.

    Second, I don’t quite understand why you hate on Marida so much when her character edges more toward the dutiful protector of her Princess, much like Norris who you do seem to admire, except for the fact that she’s a Newtype using funnels, which seems more like an aesthetic argument then anything else, so it’d give me a bit more perspective if you could clarify on that issue :p

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 15, 2010 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

      Let’s see… why I haet Marida, well she is a funnel spamming loser and I do loathe new types and their funnels more often than not. A Funnel-less UC is where UC shines like in IGLOO. Also there was Gundam ZZ… Oh she did have a part and made herself quite infamous, for that alone I HATE her because she is forcing me to accept Gundam ZZ. Also she’s a bloody Zeke and lacks the cool lines and bad ass normal status of the much respected Norris Packard.

      Reply
      • d3v
        Posted November 15, 2010 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

        Hmm, didn’t Riddhe have a newtype flash this episode?

        Reply
      • KrimzonStriker
        Posted November 15, 2010 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

        Once again, an aesthetics argument for the most part, and I don’t know, she represents a more mature twist to the whole series which she’s more of a legacy of then having been directly involved. Also, you’d have to accept it anyway since both Londo Bell and ECOAS are using the former ship from ZZ :p Still time for her to develop in my opinion, and I still think that besides these rather cosmetic differences her overall character/personality, which does strike similar tones too Norris, is something to be admired more then anything, especially considering what she’s been through.

        And yeah, I noticed that too with Riddhe, makes sense actually given the *ahem* next episode. You’ll have to find and spoil yourself with the preview images on your own though Oh it’s going to be a torturous 4 months

        Reply
18. blind_dead_mcjones
    Posted November 14, 2010 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    what, no screencap of the pinstriped zulu exploding in a bout of Leo QUALITY? seriously that shot missed it by about 5 meters and the thing still blew up

    either way impressive episode, and nice to see that it isn’t full blown pro zeon fanwank, going back to both sides hovering somewhere in the black and gray morality and you need to figure out who is the lesser of two evils

    speaking of which the propaganda that zeke spawn of gilboa was spewing out reminded me of those ‘people revolution this’ and ‘peoples republic of that’, you know those groups that claim to be fighting for the poeple while willingly wearing hypocrisy blinkers that are bigger than the big zam, also it was nice to see that banagher remembered what happened to sydney, none of the zekes seem to

    otto struck me as kinda new to the whole captaining gig, considering all the ‘help’ liam had to provide via much snark
    even though he wasn’t able to follow through with his threat, i stil look forward to more great moments from McAwesome

    there is one thing i lament in this, namely that such a beautiful suit as the sinanju is in the hands of char 2.0, i await the day it gets spared this indignity by getting blown to pieces by the unicorns beam magnum

    Reply
    • Crusader
      Posted November 15, 2010 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

      The Gera Zulu Leo montage shall have to wait hopefully it will come soon with ECOAS there to take out plenty before they launch and to be sure I want to see them explode three at at time. Besides that’s Zeke workmanship for you, cheap and shoddy. I bet they used most of their money on the Palace than on grunt suits. I am looking forward to seeing Zulus getting shot down by Londo Bell and Riddhe who seems to be up for an upgrade.

      With any luck The Feddies will soon be playing basketball with Full Frontal’s pod.

      Reply
19. thewastedyouth
    Posted November 16, 2010 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    AMAZING REVIEW!!!, Gundam Unicorn is looking amazing. The best part of this episode is when the the zeon kid starts telling Banagher how Zeon is fighting for their independance and all the Zeon talk but these assholes never say how they freaking KILLED HALF OF HUMANITY during the OYW, it is insane they used nuclear, chemical and biological weapons during the one week war killing almost all spacenoids that lived in all sides controlled by the Federation.

    I jus think Gundam is amazing, got these insane college professor telling me how great the French and Russian revolutions were and he fails to say how millions were massacred during those times. Same here with Gundam awesome

    Reply
20. Anon
    Posted November 23, 2010 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    The author just can’t get over ZZs awesomeness. He probably only saw a couple of episodes.

    Reply
21. Gunplafan11
    Posted February 28, 2011 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    Seriously, if Full frontal really IS Char, thats scary. He grew some weight. :0

    Reply